Trying harder to communicate doesn't always create more connection. According to therapist and trauma specialist Dr. Lee Long, conflict can get worse when communication becomes focused on getting another person to understand, respond differently, or change. Instead of concentrating only on what the other person is doing, Long recommends pausing to ask, “Where am I in this?” Identifying your own emotions, assumptions, patterns, and desire for control can help you respond more intentionally—even when the other person doesn't change.
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You choose your words carefully. You try not to overreact. You explain what you mean. Maybe you have even learned how to set boundaries, name your emotions, or have a difficult conversation more productively.
And yet, sometimes the conversation still ends with two people feeling further apart.
Dr. Lee Long, a therapist, trauma specialist, and author of Wait! Where Am I in This?, believes one reason may be surprisingly easy to miss. Sometimes, while trying to communicate well, people become focused on finding the words that will produce a particular response from someone else.
“If I could just say this in such a way that makes you change,” Long explains, the focus shifts toward “how to get from you what I want” instead of understanding how we are showing up in the relationship.
That distinction matters because communication may still look thoughtful from the outside. The person may genuinely be trying to solve a problem, repair a relationship, help someone understand, or establish a boundary. But if success depends on making the other person react differently, the conversation has become attached to something neither person can actually control.
Trying to Communicate Can Become Trying to Control the Outcome
Dr. J.J. Peterson recognized this tendency in his own approach to conflict. He described wanting to figure out exactly how to say something so another person would finally understand or behave differently.
Long argues that this often creates more struggle rather than less.
The person on the other side may feel controlled or manipulated and respond by pointing back at everything you need to change. Soon, the original issue has been replaced by a fight over whose behavior is the problem.
“And none of the core stuff ever gets addressed,” Long says.
That doesn't mean people shouldn't ask for what they need. It also doesn't mean accepting behavior that makes them uncomfortable. Long uses boundaries as an example: a boundary isn't a way to make someone else stop doing something. It identifies what you will do in response.
If a family member repeatedly brings up a subject that makes you uncomfortable, for example, the response might be to say that you need to change the subject or leave the conversation. The other person still controls what they do. You control what you do next.
That distinction separates influence from control.
“I have influence sometimes, but I don't have control,” Long says.
Three Things Can Pull Your Attention Away From Yourself
Long identifies several forces that can make this harder: mind reading, the illusion of control, and our own patterns.
Mind reading happens when we fill in information we don't actually have. A short text means someone is angry. A facial expression means they disapprove. Silence means something must be wrong. Once that interpretation becomes the story we're responding to, we may be reacting to our assumption rather than what the other person has actually said.
The illusion of control works similarly. If only the right argument, tone, explanation, or boundary could guarantee the other person's response, then perhaps the situation would finally feel manageable.
But it can't.
Then there are patterns. Everyone has preferences, values, personalities, experiences, and habitual ways of responding. Those patterns aren't inherently bad, but when they remain invisible, they influence how we interpret what is happening around us.
Together, these tendencies can keep our attention almost entirely outside ourselves: What are they thinking? Why did they do that? How can I make them understand? What can I say to change this?
Long compares the alternative to using GPS. Before a navigation system can tell you how to get somewhere, it has to identify your current location.
The same is true in a difficult interaction.
“If I'm oriented and thinking that I'm somewhere that I'm not, I'm never gonna find the way to where I want to be,” he says.
“Where Am I in This?” Changes the Starting Point
The question at the center of Long's work is deceptively simple:
Where am I in this?
It turns attention away from diagnosing the other person long enough to notice what is happening internally.
Long suggests pausing and asking:
What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I experiencing? What am I believing?
The goal isn't endless introspection. These questions are cues designed to help someone locate themselves before deciding what to do next.
That can be more difficult than it sounds, particularly when anxiety is involved.
Peterson described a professional relationship in which interactions with another person began triggering significant anxiety and panic. At first, he could identify the anxiety, but when someone asked what he was actually feeling underneath it, he couldn't name it.
Long says that experience isn't unusual. By the time someone reaches panic, he explains, the system is “redlining,” making it difficult to identify much of anything.
He also sees another problem: “We're really more focused on what's going on out there than what's going on in here inside of us.”
In one example, a client struggling to identify what was underneath his anger used a feelings wheel until one word finally fit: disrespected. Naming it didn't automatically solve the situation, but it gave him information he hadn't had before.
Emotions Are Information, Not Instructions
Long compares emotions to the dashboard of a car.
When the check-engine light appears, it doesn't necessarily mean the engine is about to seize. It means something needs attention.
“Emotions are a lot like that if we can pay attention to them,” he says.
That changes the role emotions can play in conflict. Anxiety doesn't automatically mean another person is dangerous. Anger doesn't automatically prove someone else is wrong. Fear doesn't automatically dictate what should happen next.
But those emotions can tell us that something is happening inside us that deserves attention.
Once we know more about that, we have more choices about how to respond.
That might mean asking a question instead of assuming we know what someone thinks. It might mean expressing hurt underneath anger. It could mean setting a boundary, leaving a conversation, asking for something different, or simply recognizing that another person's beliefs and behavior are theirs to own.
The point isn't to eliminate conflict. It's to know where you are before deciding where to go.
Connection Doesn't Require Controlling the Other Person
This is where Long's argument circles back to the larger problem of disconnection.
When Peterson asks whether our attempts to change one another might be contributing to broader feelings of disconnection and disengagement, Long answers strongly: “Frankly, I think it is the core reason why we are in this place, why our world remains so divided.”
His alternative isn't agreement.
It is the ability to stay aware of what another person's words bring up in us without immediately making changing that person the goal.
That applies in families, friendships, workplaces, leadership, and conversations between people who see the world very differently. Two people may still disagree. Someone may still need to say no. A boundary may still be necessary. A relationship may still be difficult.
Coming back to yourself doesn't guarantee the outcome.
It gives you a clearer place from which to choose your response.
And perhaps that's the paradox at the center of better communication: connection doesn't always begin with figuring out the perfect thing to say to someone else.
Sometimes it begins by asking, “Where am I in this?”
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[00:00:00] When Good Communication Isn’t Creating Connection
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I think we find ourselves a lot of the times trying to go like, "Well, if they just weren't so mean, or if they just weren't so lazy, then everything would be better." And yet what you're saying is that is not going to fix anything.
Dr. Lee Long: What I have found is it actually creates more of a struggle. If I am in this place where if I could just say this in such a way that makes you change, now I'm all of a sudden focused on you and how to get from you what I want, rather than understanding how I'm showing up in this dynamic, and none of the core stuff ever gets addressed.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson I don't know about you, but, uh, when I am frustrated with somebody, uh, you know, when a relationship is difficult, or when I find myself in a situation that I really don't like, uh, it's pretty easy to see what everyone else needs to be doing differently
Right? I can look at everybody else and be like, "Well, if they weren't like this, if, if, if they just changed, or maybe if they were more understanding, or if they were better, uh, you know, then everything would be better." Truthfully. Like, it's just like, well, everybody else kinda needs to change, or if I could figure out how to control them or change them, then everything would be better.
But what happens when we stop looking at everybody else and pause for a minute and ask ourselves, "Wait, where am I in this? How am I feeling? What's going on in me that's creating anxiety, fear, uh, anger," right? That question, wait, where am I in this, is at the heart of the work of my guest today, Dr. Lee Long.
Lee is a trauma therapist. Uh, uh, well, Lee is a therapist, trauma specialist, and author of the book Wait! Where Am I in This? And he has spent nearly three decades helping people better understand themselves and the stories and patterns that shape how they show up in their lives. And in this conversation, Lee talks to me about the wait process and what it looks like to slow down and actually pay attention to what is going on inside of us.
And we talk about what gets in the way of being able to pause and ask that question in the first place, and how better to understand what our emotions are trying to tell us, and how that awareness can change the way we show up in our relationships and our lives. Because I mentioned at the beginning that s- many of us are feeling very disconnected right now.
The world kind of feels on fire. And I believe that if we actually all kind of started w- uh, showing up this way, really looking at ourselves and where we're coming from, that it, uh, will change everything. This conversation and the work that Dr. Lee has done, I mean, it just changed me significantly, and I know that it's gonna have a big impact on you.
So I'm so excited for you to hear my conversation today with Dr. Lee Long. Dr. Lee Long, thank you so much for being here. I, uh, have been wanting to have you on this podcast ever since I met you. You and I worked on a project together, and the funnest thing for me was, just to share with the listeners, is that when we started working together, your whole family was there.
You invited your kids, your wife- Yeah ... was a part of this, and, um, I love all of them as well as- Mm ... love you. And the fact that you just started out saying, "Hey, I'm building this new thing that is going to impact potentially my life, my commitments, where we're gonna build something together," and you're like, "I want to involve my whole family in this," I knew instantly that, uh, you were a person that I wanted to be around and learn from and share life with and because you inspire me on so many different levels, but that we will talk about, but that one was really special for me.
I've literally never had somebody bring their whole family, and I know that for some people that might feel- ... a little weird, like, "Oh, your kids are coming, great." Uh, it actually- ... was so inspiring, so cool because as you know about Badass Softie, it's about... Badass Softie is for leaders who are unapologetically driven but also wanna lead with their heart and build a life outside of work.
And you modeled that in such a powerful way that I have now grown to respect, admire, and learn from you in so many ways, and I'm so excited that our listeners can do that as well. So thank you for being a Badass Softie, and thank you for being on the podcast today.
Dr. Lee Long: Wow. I, I need to take a moment to soak all that in.
I mean, thank you. Um, that, that was... Wow. Thank you.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: You know, I, the, the other reason I wanted to really have you on is when we started to get to know each other, I discovered that the way that you- approach life and therapy. You have a unique perspective, and I think it's so important, and we're gonna talk about that today.
But, uh, you know, I find that, I, I don't know if it was the pandemic or anything, but that s- the past few years it feels like therapy in particular is more available to people. You can do it online. You can do it around. There is less stigma about it. People are talking. There's almost a pride in that you go to therapy.
Like, if you don't go to therapy, that's a red flag kind of thing for a lot of people. Right. Very true. Um, it's coming up in, when it comes in the workplace, like people are going, "Is mental health a part of this environment? Do we value it?" And yet people, the statistics are showing that people are more disconnected than ever.
Depression and disengagement is at a higher level, and disengagement in particular is the highest level it's been in a, in, in decades.
Dr. Lee Long: Yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And so therapy's more available. Mental health is more easily talked about, and yet It, things feel worse. Mm-hmm. Uh, why is that, Dr. Long? Why do you think, why do you think that is?
Dr. Lee Long: You know, it's... I think that when we go to therapy traditionally, we go to solve the problems of everybody else, meaning, "I want my mom to have better boundaries." "I want my kids to behave more."
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Mm-hmm. "
Dr. Lee Long: Could you, could you help my kids please behave better?" Um, I, I often hear, "Okay, tell me the way to say it so that they..."
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Mm.
Dr. Lee Long: Dot, dot, dot.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:07:10] Relationships, Therapy, and Why We Still Feel Disconnected
Dr. Lee Long: And what I have f- what I believe, what I know, what I have seen for the last almost three decades is changing other people, we don't have that power, and I often... I was just, I was just talking to a group of young therapists that I teach on a regular basis, and somebody brought up a case of, uh, with an issue that they...
One of the things that I said is, "You know, I can't tell you how many videos I've watched of young, new therapists who listen to, like, a wife will come in and say, 'My husband discounts me. He does not see me well.' And the therapist stops and says, 'Well, that's not right. W- why don't you bring him next time?'"
And the next video is the husband shows up, and the husband's like, "Wait, what? No, she cusses me out." And then the therapist is like, "Wait, what?" And it's like it turns into arbitration, and it turns into you're litigating their relationship as opposed to saying, "Wait, stop. Talk to me about where you are in this moment."
If your mom needs better boundaries, maybe you're the one who needs to look inside and say, "Wait, you know, Mom, when this topic comes up, it, I f- I start to feel really uncomfortable, and so I'm gonna need to either change the subject, or I'm gonna need to let you go." But to be able to do that, and this is where I think we struggle, is that that sounds great, but I don't know where I am in the moment.
I don't know what I'm thinking or feeling. And so we walk around thinking, "You stop." "No, you stop." "No..." And it's funny, when my kids were little, they would do this thing where they would say, "You stop." "No, you stop." And that's how their fights would start. And then they would do this funny thing where they would go bubble, bubble, bubble, bubble, and then they would just go to their corners, and then they would start trying to figure out, "Okay, what's going on with me?
What's going on with this situation?" As much as they could, um, developmentally speaking. But I think that where
Dr. J.J. Peterson: that- I, I mean, I've seen that all the time. I've seen that all the time, and I'm, and I'm pausing you here for a second 'cause I think there, uh, as we get into this, I, I'm thinking about myself, and I think so much of the first thing that comes up when I have conflict with somebody else is, "How do I say this in a way that can control them?"
Yes. How do I say this? And sometimes it, it is, how can I manipulate them, to be very honest. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it is, how can I care for them in a way that gets them to do something different? But it's always about, how can I change them? Not, not always, but a lot, a lot of the time. And I would say that even when I first, very first, a long time ago, started going to therapy, it was I wanted tools to be able to change the way that, like, my mom spoke to me.
That, that was really what... I think what I thought. It was, I would like tools. So I'm still saying I'm going for me, but I would like tools to be able to change the way my mom shows up or the way that we interact, but really it's about controlling her, and that happens obviously in, uh, you know, r- romantic relationships, family dynamics, and also at work.
I mean, I think- Yes ... we find ourselves a lot of the times trying to go like, "Well, if they just weren't so mean, or if they just weren't so lazy, or if they just weren't... Then everything would be better." And yet what you're saying is that that is probably not going to fix anything.
Dr. Lee Long: It's, uh... What I have found is it actually creates more of a struggle.
Because if, if I am in this place where if I could just say this in such a way that makes you change, now I'm all of a sudden focused on you and how to get from you what I want rather than understanding how I'm showing up in this dynamic. And then what happens is, is it turns conflictually from, from whomever we're trying to change, who feels controlled, who feels manipulated, now they're coming back at us saying, "Well, why don't you change all of this?"
And none of the core stuff ever gets addressed.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And you think that that is even part of, you know, going back to my original question, is like, do you think that that is contributing to where we're at with this disconnection and this depression and disengagement, all of that?
Dr. Lee Long: Frankly, I think it is the core reason why we are in this place, why our world remains so divided.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: E- Even in like on a political spectrum and all, and like we're not just talking about just dating or, or family relationships, but you're talking about like engagement with everybody.
Dr. Lee Long: Well, when, when you think about if a, if a person who leans more to the liberal ideology talking to a person who leans more to the conservative ideology, is there, do we sit down to speak with m- a person of, of opposite beliefs to understand where are you coming from?
And do I recognize, you know, somebody of a different belief set may really ignite some frustration or pain or, or fear within me? Do I, can I slow down long enough to understand, "Wait, what's this bringing up in me?" Rather than trying to, to control or change their mind, it's recognizing why does this bring up so much in me, and understanding the origins of that.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: So when you are working with people, so say people come to you, let's, and say, "Hey, I've got this issue with my conservative... I'm liberal. I'm coming to you with this issue with my conservative uncle, and I want to learn how to talk to him in a way that helps him understand why he's wrong and also to stop talking loudly at Thanksgiving."
Um, and somebody comes to you and says that. So that's, I, I'm looking for, my uncle drives me insane. Every day he drives me insane. I can't look at his posts online. And, uh, I, I need you to give me some words to help me talk to him, some tools to help me talk to him, and then also set boundaries at Thanksgiving so he doesn't say racist comments.
[00:13:30] When Trying to Help Becomes Trying to Control
Dr. J.J. Peterson: How would you begin the process of approaching this person?
Dr. Lee Long: The first question I would ask is, "Can you tell me where you are in that moment? When you hear these comments from your uncle, what happens inside of you?" And typically it would be, "I feel overlooked, I feel angry." And I would say, "Okay, let's go beneath some of that.
What's beneath the anger?" "I feel hurt. I'm afraid. Um, I'm afraid that our whole world is turning into this, this angry, horrible, uh, overlooking, casting aside ideology." "Okay. And how... Where do you find yourself in that?" "Well, it's painful to listen to." "Okay, we can work with that. It's painful to hear these things."
Yes, and, and sometimes it's linked back to something earlier, but I, I also have tried to work really hard not to be that stereotypical therapist that everything relates back to childhood. Um, and so sometimes, yes, it's back to childhood where you were overlooked and, and maybe had some, some tough instances, but sometimes it just is in the moment what it is, and that that's hurtful.
Um, I can't believe that I'm related to someone who would speak this hurt, in this hurtful manner. It's like, okay, bring it back to you. Do, do you believe that that has, that that says something about you? And at the end of the day, it doesn't. Those are his beliefs. These are my beliefs. We disagree. Huh. Okay.
Can I leave it there? Am I trying to change my uncle? Well, I don't like it when my uncle tries to change me Okay. Can we leave it with these may be your uncle's beliefs, and can you leave it with him? And if the topic comes up and he gets super loud, you know, "Uncle Festus, I don't, I don't, I don't enjoy this conversation, um, and I'm, I, I would, I would prefer if we could talk about something different."
And if Uncle Festus just is insistent upon that, then what do I do? It's like, "You know what? I think I'm gonna need to, to get up and take a walk," where I'm now taking care of me. I can't change his mind. Now, if it's, "Hey, listen, Uncle, I, I'd like to have a really calm conversation with you, and what I'd like to...
M- my desired outcome would be that I'd like to understand you, but conversely, I'd really like for you to be willing to understand me. Would you be open to that?" And he has the opportunity to say yes or no.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: That, I mean, that first thing of just pausing and saying, "Where am I in this and what am I feeling?"
I have found that is much harder than I anticipated it being. And what really, uh, y- we'll, we'll get a little vulnerable here with this. What was really interesting for me is, so, um, not that long ago, I was, uh, in a work relationship with somebody who every time I was around them, I got anxiety. And I started having panic attacks, and it, it was kind of a short-term relationship that I had agreed to a project on, and anytime an email came up, a calendar came up, anything, I got anxiety, like to the point of where I was having a panic attack about this person that was very aggressive and confusing and all these different things.
Well, uh, somebody asked me what are you feeling? Like, so I, my, my response was, "Yeah, this person, I, I have anxiety." And they go, "All right, but what are you feeling?" And the crazy thing was is I actually couldn't name what I was feeling. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I could name anxiety- Mm-hmm ... but I couldn't name what was underneath the anxiety.
Dr. Lee Long: Yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Fear or overlooked or disrespected or- Yeah ... you know, any of those kind of things. And then the other thing that this person asked me, "Well, so what are you afraid of with this person? What are they gonna do to you if you don't do what everything they said to you?" And I also couldn't name that either.
And I, I think that, well, I won't even say for anybody else. For me, one of the things that has been hard for me is actually, uh, to be able to name my feelings.
Dr. Lee Long: Yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I, I consider myself a very emotionally open person who engages- Yeah ... with people. I cry. Like, they're, you know, at StoryBrand they used to have, like, bets on me of, like, how many times j- is JJ gonna cry during, you know, this workshop.
And it was usually, the over under was usually around three. Um, but I- ... consider myself a, uh, somebody who is, quote unquote, "In touch with their emotions"- Yeah ... because I feel a lot of things. I cry, I'm engaged, I love people. I, you know, all of those things. I, um, and yet specifically for me, when it came to moments of anxiety, so I can say, like, "Oh, I'm sad," or, "I'm happy," but when it came to those moments where I was panicking, I actually couldn't name the feelings that were creating that.
Right. And for me, it, it took a bit. Like, it actually took a major, major pause. It wasn't just, like, just pause for a second and try to think, what are you feeling? I actually had to, like, step back and really journal and go a bit deeper because I couldn't name the feelings that were creating specifically the anxiety.
Is that, do you find that to be common? I mean, like, that, uh, 'cause a lot of people are dealing with a lot of anxiety and panic. Yes. And, and how do you direct people to kind of process through that?
Dr. Lee Long: It, it is quite common. By the time something gets to panic, that's, that's sort, that's, like, when everything's redlining, and so in the midst of a panic attack, we're prob- you're, the, the chances of you being able to name much of anything is going to be difficult.
Um, but yes- I, I do believe that because we're so externally oriented, we're really more focused on what's going on out there than what's going on in here inside of us, and it does take time. I mean, I have-- uh, I had a, a, a gentleman that was sitting in my office and such a-an amazing human and was struggling to name his emotions.
And he was like, "Do you have one of those, uh, you know, colorful things that are round and they have a bunch of words on it?" And I was like, "A feeling wheel?" He's like, "Yeah, those. Can you pull that out for me?" And I pulled it out, and I mean, he studied it, and it's like all of his-- the, the anger and fury that was going on inside of him just sort of dissipated.
And then finally he said, "That right there, disrespected, that's how I feel." And it was interesting because his homework was every ti- go find one online Do the screenshot, put it on your phone, look at it. And every time you get into a place where you are pausing, go look at that wheel. It'll help slow you down, but it'll also give you words of, uh...
And try them on. They're like coats. Try them on, and if it fits, that's what's going on with you in the moment.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Uh, it's, it's so funny 'cause we have a feelings wheel at our house, and I was mostly using it for our kids- Mm ... and thinking, "Well, I understand my own emotions." Like, just again, 'cause I cry at Olympics commercials.
Um- ... but it turns out, uh, when it came down to it, and I think for me, it really is, like I said, I can, I can talk about being happy or sad or kind of like these bigger kind of things, but specifically for me when it comes to panic, in relationship to how, to being around certain people or certain situations, that's what I wasn't able to name.
And you, y- the work that you do and, and the work that I began to understand in, uh, i- in working with you, was the idea of instead of kind of going, "Well, this person causes me anxiety"- Yes ... to stop and go, "Well, where am I in this?" And that phrase, "Where am I in this?" is so important to the work that you do.
[00:22:11] Mind Reading, Anxiety, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves
Dr. J.J. Peterson: You actually e- wrote your book about this idea. Can you talk a little bit about this kind of... 'Cause like I said, I think it's hard. How do you actually help people in these situations walk through this?
Dr. Lee Long: I think that it's looking at the barriers, and there's, there's several barriers that keep us from knowing where we are.
One is mind reading, and what that means is it's just I assume that I know what other people are thinking, and I attribute it to them, and I create this whole narrative in my head and have this imaginary conversation with them, and I know, and I've never interacted with them. What's fun is in romantic relationships, in couples and partners, is a good portion of the time, I would say better than 85 to 90% of the time, they're right But what they miss out on is the interaction, and what they miss out on is understanding what they themselves brought to the situation.
The other is, is there's this illusion of control. I call it the control illusion, and it, it's, it's largely what we've talked about already, is I believe that if I say in a certain way, if I could just engender the right spirit in you, then I can get us to this place over here. I had a, a student just ask me, "Okay, so I know we're not supposed to tell people what to do, so how do I ask the question in such a way that they..."
And I was like, "Whoa, whoa,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: whoa, whoa." Already missed it.
Dr. Lee Long: Yes, we don't have that control. Yeah. It's not about that. And so that we operate with that sense of, that illusion of control, and the, the other is recognizing our patterns. We loop in patterns. And in, in these, in these patterns, it's because I have a style, I have a personality, and I do things a certain way, and I have a, a value set.
I have preferences, right? We all do, and with that comes patterns. Like you've said, I, I was... I'm an emotional guy, and that could, there could be some patterning in there. And so if I move through the world not understanding my patterns, believing that I have this illusion of control in, in the environment, that I don't.
I have influence sometimes, but I don't have control, and if I walk around trying to evaluate and read everyone's minds, then what that does is it keeps me from orienting myself to where I actually am. Every time we bring up a GPS device, like a Apple Maps, Google Maps, whichever maps you use, Waze, whatever It automatically orients you to your current location.
And this is that psychological piece of orienting us to our current location. Because if I'm oriented and thinking that I'm going-- thinking that I'm somewhere that I'm not, I'm never gonna find the way to where I want to be.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Give me an example of that. Like if, uh, uh, when you talk about orientate- understanding where you are compared to where you think you are, can you give me an example of that?
Dr. Lee Long: Sure. I, I'll use, I'll use your example if that's okay. I, I, I'm an emotional guy, but I don't know what I'm feeling underneath this, this panic, and I don't know what gets me there. And so if I don't understand how I'm showing up with people who are, um, aggressive or overly a- assertive on me, wait a second, I'm starting to recognize a, a, a theme here, and I can find myself in this going, "Boy, their energy feels very overtaking of me."
Ah, and I feel like I'm losing control of me. Ah, okay, now I can settle in and say, "I don't give that away." I can feel that tug, that pull, but I can stop and say, "Wait, where am I in this moment? No, I'm right here. I'm in my own shoes, and I'm not gonna be pulled out of them."
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And when you say W.A.I.T., it really does, it stands for Where Am I In This.
Do you find yourself w- and, and that's the name of your book, and you walk through this whole process and the barriers and kind of everything that gets in the way of us being even able to pause and ask this question. But for yourself, um, if you don't mind being a little vulnerable here-
Dr. Lee Long: Not at
Dr. J.J. Peterson: all ... when, when do you struggle with the pause?
Like, like do you, uh, you know, you kind of go, "I, I've, I've read the book. We've talked a lot. I've listened to your podcast. Like, I've seen your interviews. I know this pretty well," in the sense- Mm-hmm ... of like probably compared to the general populace- Yes ... I would say I'm pretty at least educated in this f- framework.
Dr. Lee Long: Yeah.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And yet I still find myself, you know, skip... So for you, where, do you do this perfectly every time?
Dr. Lee Long: No. Gosh, no. Oh. Oh gosh, no. No. And,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: and what would you say even like gets in... And, and I, I'm asking this for o- for people- Yeah ... who, you know, go, "Well, yeah, all I have to do is ask this question," and yet the process of walking through it is not as easy as it sounds.
It's incredibly helpful, and yet, you know, you don't do it perfect every time either. W- why? Why? It's an easy question. No way.
Dr. Lee Long: Right. I always say this process is very simple, but it is also, simple doesn't mean easy. And a- any time I'm stressed, any time I'm tired, any time I am hungry, thirsty, I mean, it, it, you, it's when you feel the most vulnerable, you're going to struggle with flowing outside of you, living life outside of you.
And, and look, I, I, I think of myself as a pretty driven human being, and I think, "Okay, I want this accomplished. I want it to go this direction, and how do I get everything out of my way?" I, I'm, I'm, I'm a part of a, of a professional organization, and I have a, a position of leadership, and I was thinking during a, a, a meeting, "Okay, I need to shut this conversation down.
I need to move us in this direction." And I thought, "Wait, where am I in this? Oh, I'm feeling anxious." Because if I really peel the layers back, JJ, where I was, I was feeling insecure about am I leading well. Some of these people in the-- These people that are in the room are some of the most decorated, amazing psychotherapists in the world.
Am I, am I living up to it? And I thought, "Oh,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: huh,
Dr. Lee Long: there it is again." And I just came back inside and I thought, "Is this angst meaning, like it's telling me something? 'Okay, I think we need to move this conversation along.' Or is this angst me trying to prove something?" And what I realized was in the moment it was me trying to prove something, and I thought, "I don't need to prove anything.
I was invited into this room. I believe that I belong where I am." So I just stayed myself and navigated through, and then felt the tension and thought, "Okay, is this because this conversation's been going on too long, or is this because I'm trying to prove that I'm worthy?" And it was, no, it's been going on a while.
And so I was able to navigate through without trying to push the meeting. And it's just, it... I left the meeting feeling so full because I didn't push myself to be someone that in the end I'm not. In the end, I don't wanna take somebody's power away from them. I don't wanna shut down a heartfelt conversation.
I want to get things accomplished, but I wanna do it never at the expense of a relationship.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. And you coming back to yourself, and not only feeling better about yourself, also served everybody else in the room. 'Cause then, you know, what ends up happening is you start steamrolling things and moving people along and shutting down, them down, and then they might be angry and shame and feel bad that, "Oh, I was talking too much."
And now everybody starts again getting disconnected- Yeah ... because you weren't able to show up in a way that served yourself and others well.
[00:31:08] The Difference Between Influence and Control
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And it, that's why, again, going back all the way to the beginning, it kind of feels like, oh, we're talking about all this internal work, and yet I started the conversation about how, about the external world, the disconnection and everything.
But to me, what you just showed there is that you showing up, coming back to yourself in that moment, allowed you to actually lead in a way that didn't come out of pain, hurt, shame, you know, uh, fear, and when... And that actually served everybody else in the room better. And sure, maybe you didn't get everything, you didn't cross off the very last thing on the list, maybe, and yet the way you showed up in that way was really powerful for you and for them.
You know, there, there's been so many, uh, things in, in, in the work that you do that have really been so helpful for me. The mind reading is so, like, understanding that when I am mind reading, and I, 'cause I do that a lot, that is a pattern that shows up in me is that, you know, I send a text to somebody and they don't text me back right away, and immediately I start going, "Well, they're mad at me."
Or, "Was it the way that I said that that pissed them o-" And all of a sudden I'm mind reading and it turned out, no, they just were in a meeting when I texted, you know? Right. Or they were, they were having trouble getting their car at the airport. That literally happened the other day. Somebody, I was... I texted somebody and I was like, "Oh, they're mad at me.
They're ready." And it turned out they were, they were frustrated because they, their rental car was not where it w- was not there when they showed up. Right. And they were running around, they were late and everything. And then we joked about it later. But- I was mind reading, and that is a pattern for me. So that has been super helpful for me.
And then always saying, kinda bringing myself back to the control thing has been very huge for me as well, that I am not in control of anybody, period. And I can influence and I can connect, but it, I cannot control. What, for anybody listening right now, is there anything else kind of just really practically in all of this that you would offer as a way of people being able to connect with themselves and with others?
Dr. Lee Long: I think that it's asking, obviously starting with the PAUSE. The- because that acronym was very purposeful, that it is wait, pause, take a beat, evaluate what am I thinking, what am I feeling, what am I experiencing, and what am I believing? And I don't, I wouldn't try to write a dissertation on those four questions.
Um, it just is simply those are cues to bring you back to what's going on inside of me. And I would say recognize that emotions are like a dashboard, and on that dashboard when you see something light up, when the check engine light comes on, it doesn't always mean that your engine is seizing up. It rarely means, I should say, that your engine is about to seize up and everything's over and it's all catastrophic.
It's a warning light that just says, "Hey, we need to check on this." And emotions are a lot like that if we can pay attention to them. And so I'm not asking, I'm not encouraging and I'm not asking everyone to contemplate their belly button all the time. But I am just saying just draw a little bit of awareness, and if you catch it after, okay.
That's a win. You at least caught it. Now you know how to get out of the ditch. I often say to people who show up in my office, you know, they're looking to perfect things, and especially with couples We're, the work you do here is not gonna prevent you from being in the ditch. It's just gonna give you a pathway to help get you out of the ditch when you find yourself there.
And maybe we'll visit the ditch a little less often. And so you're still gonna feel the hurt, you're still gonna feel the pain. Things are still gonna be what they are. You will just know where you are and how to navigate your way out of it.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I love that. That also has been a super helpful thing for me because I think, again, in those moments when I don't when I fail in the pause or I fail in the, and I start getting anxious or I start kind of trying to control or all those things, that that can create a whole other spiral 'cause it's like, oh, I am bad- Right
at, you know, blank. And the reality of just saying, no, the, y- you're gonna end up in the ditch, and, uh, the biggest part of relationship building is the repair anyway, and, and coming out of that ditch and, and learning how to continue to move forward in life versus trying to just wrap yourself in bubble wrap all the time.
Exactly. If we did that, we would just never be in relationship. There would never be- Right ... joy, beauty, adventure, you know, all these things. You would just be in bubble wrap. And so- Right ... instead, recognize, yeah, things, we're not gonna get it right every time, but when we do, let's figure out, if we have these tools to figure out how to get out of that ditch, it's gonna be s- so much be- more beautiful.
Uh, for anybody that's listening, um, how can they continue this conversation by learning from you? Like, where are areas they can find you, follow you, learn more about this?
Dr. Lee Long: So on all socials, it's dr.leelong, um, and the, our website or my website is, uh, drleelong or drleelong.com.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Nice. And that's where they can find out about your book and the work- Yes
that you're doing, and some of, and the podcast.
Dr. Lee Long: Yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Um, where, you know, you actually go through and are interviewing people with their permission. They're g- they don't know you're s- that you're not secretly recording people. But you know, you're actually going through this process with them because like we said, it, it's not always the easiest to understand how to get there, but you actually kind of model this with some, uh, people who volunteer and come in and talk about this.
So- Yeah ... thank you so much. I mean, genuinely, you have been so incredibly helpful for me personally and my family and work and all the things. But also just, uh, thank you for y- being driven enough to get this out there in a book and in the other courses and things that you're creating so that more and more people can not only be con- have better relationships with others, but have better relationships with themselves.
And so thank you for being here, and thank you so much for being a Badass
Dr. Lee Long: Softie. JJ, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being part of the, the crew, the invaluable parts that have helped me get this to, to the sunlight. So thank you. Thank you for helping me light those candles and light the cathedral.
Thank you.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Love it. It's my honor Oh my goodness, Dr. Lee, thank you so much for, uh, just being here and being vulnerable yourself and showing up and giving us tools to be able to really have better relationships and live less anxious, more present lives. That's really, I know what it's done for me. You know, I got a little vulnerable in this and, and, you know, to the point of where I shared some, but the truth is, is that I have, uh, uh, I have been dealing with a lot of anxiety lately.
Um, I'm not the kind of person who has had panic attacks in my life. I didn't know what those were. And, you know, as a lot of different circumstances have shown up for me lately, um, in, you know, losing my dad and becoming a dad, and a lot of stuff with work and relationships and some things that are even, a- again, outside of myself, I have found myself dealing with a lot of anxiety lately.
And the work that Dr. Lee has done, and just this question right there of pausing and saying, "Where am I in this?" has helped me so much. And again, I mention I don't do it perfectly, but when I can pause and go, "What am I actually feeling? What am I actually experiencing? What are the things that I've been dealing...
Where, where have I been mind reading that I don't know what these people are thinking, and yet I show up assuming they are thinking a very specific thing, and they're not?" When I've been able to pause, I promise you it has changed my life, and I hope that this has given you a tool to be able to show up for yourself in a new way as well.
That when you're dealing with anxiety, when you're dealing with stressful relationships and situations that are outside of your control, you can pause long enough to get back to yourself so that then you can show up in a way that honors you and honors the people around you. And you can continue moving forward and being driven and accomplishing so many things, or just having peace.
I think all of that is so important. And so my hope is, and my challenge is, is that any time that you are coming up in a situation where you are struggling, where you are feeling anxiety, where you are feeling disconnect, instead of thinking, "How can I change them?" pause for a minute and say, "Where am I in this?"
So let me leave you with this. May you give yourself permission to pause and just ask that question, where am I in this? May you have the courage to pay attention to what is happening inside of you, even when it would be easier to focus on everyone else. May you learn to listen to your emotions, not as something to avoid or control, but as information that can help you better understand yourself.
And may you recognize the mind reading, the desire for control, and the patterns that might be getting in the way of you being able to show up as your fullest self. Because when we all show up as our fullest self, the world is a better place. We believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun and driven, powerful and deeply human.
Your leadership can inspire, your success can have soul, and your ambition can make space for everyone. That's why you're a badass softie. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Badasssoftie.com is crafted by Fruitful Design & Strategy.