Self-Awareness Matters More Than Self-Discipline
Some people can thrive under pressure but struggle with simple decisions, routines, or everyday tasks—and for many leaders, that disconnect quietly becomes a source of shame. In this conversation, Dr. J.J. Peterson speaks with therapist and ADHD specialist Isabelle Richards about neurodivergence, self-awareness, and why understanding how you naturally function may matter more than trying to force yourself into systems that were never designed for you.
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Many leaders are excellent under pressure.
They can navigate crises, make difficult decisions, and carry enormous responsibility without hesitation. They are often the people others turn to when things become complicated, uncertain, or high-stakes.
Yet some of those same leaders quietly struggle with tasks that should feel easy.
They may delay responding to an email, feel overwhelmed by routine decisions, or freeze when trying to begin something simple. They may perform exceptionally well in situations that require urgency while feeling inexplicably stuck in moments that carry far less consequence.
That contradiction can become deeply confusing.
If you can lead a team, solve complex problems, and perform under pressure, why do certain ordinary tasks feel disproportionately hard?
For many high achievers, that disconnect becomes a private source of frustration. It often gets interpreted as inconsistency, lack of discipline, or some personal failure to function the “right” way.
In his conversation with licensed therapist and ADHD specialist Isabelle Richards, co-host of the Something Shiny ADHD Podcast, Dr. J.J. Peterson explores that tension through the lens of neurodivergence, leadership, and self-awareness.
Rather than focusing on productivity hacks or rigid systems, the conversation asks a deeper question: what happens when leaders stop interpreting struggle as proof that something is wrong with them, and begin seeing it as information about how they naturally function?
Why Leadership Struggles Are Often Mistaken for Discipline Problems
Many leaders assume that difficulty means they need to try harder. When something feels hard, the instinct is often to become more disciplined, more organized, more structured, or more productive.
That response makes sense. Leadership culture often reinforces the belief that successful people should be able to push through discomfort and operate consistently across every environment.
But Isabelle offers a different framework.
Rather than seeing ADHD or neurodivergence as something broken, she reframes it as a different operating system.
She often uses the term “neuro-spicy” to describe brains that process the world differently.
These include ADHD, autism, sensory processing differences, executive functioning challenges, OCD, dyslexia, and other forms of neurodivergence.
Many of these experiences are connected to executive functioning—the mental skills responsible for planning, prioritizing, sequencing, organization, and decision-making.
Her perspective is not that these differences need to be fixed, but that they need to be understood.
As she explains:
“It’s not fixing or curing your brain and nervous system… it’s repairing all the wounds you’ve suffered because you thought you were supposed to be different than how you really are.”
That distinction matters—especially in leadership.
Leadership culture often rewards consistency, speed, decisiveness, and emotional regulation, and many workplaces are built around the assumption that everyone processes information in the same way.
But people don’t.
When leaders assume they should function like everyone else, struggle quickly turns into shame.
Why Some People Thrive Under Pressure but Freeze Everywhere Else
One of the most compelling insights from Isabelle is that many ADHD brains function differently when urgency, excitement, or pressure are present.
In moments of high stimulation, the brain receives a flood of adrenaline and dopamine.
That means some people can suddenly focus, act decisively, and perform at a high level when stakes are high.
But when those external drivers disappear, everyday tasks can feel overwhelming.
This creates a confusing contradiction that many leaders quietly live with.
You may be able to lead a crisis meeting without hesitation, yet avoid responding to an email for days. You may feel comfortable making major business decisions while struggling to choose what to eat for lunch. You may manage a team effectively while feeling overwhelmed by organizing your own workflow.
Without context, those inconsistencies can feel deeply personal. Many people assume the problem is laziness, lack of focus, or a failure of discipline.
The conclusion often becomes: something must be wrong with me.
That assumption often leads to cycles of self-criticism.
Isabelle explains that shame itself can become reinforcing because it creates physiological activation. Shame produces adrenaline, and adrenaline creates dopamine.
For some neurodivergent brains, that can create a strange loop where stress and shame become motivating—even while causing emotional damage.
“We are the best at shaming ourselves,” Isabelle says. “The shame spirals we go on are not light.”
That insight reframes what many leaders mistake for laziness, inconsistency, or lack of discipline.
But Isabelle also offers an important counterbalance to shame.
Rather than trying to eliminate it entirely, she explains that shame may be meeting a need the brain is already seeking.
Because shame creates adrenaline—and adrenaline can produce dopamine—it can become a strangely effective source of stimulation for an ADHD brain.
That doesn’t make shame healthy, but it does explain why some people return to it so quickly.
In the conversation, Isabelle suggests a different pathway: specific gratitude.
Not generic positivity. Not forced optimism.
Instead, she describes gratitude tied directly to the moment you are in.
A person might pause and acknowledge that they are grateful to understand what is happening, grateful to recognize a pattern, or grateful to realize they need support instead of punishment.
The goal is not to pretend struggle doesn’t exist.
It is to give the brain another source of reinforcement.
Over time, gratitude can begin creating a healthier reward pathway—one that offers the stimulation the brain may be seeking without relying on self-criticism to get there.
For leaders, this becomes less about “thinking positively” and more about interrupting the automatic move toward shame.
It matters because shame often disguises itself as productivity, perfectionism, or over-functioning. Many leaders push harder not because it helps, but because pressure has become the only way they know how to create momentum.
Sometimes the problem is not motivation.
It is misunderstanding.
Self-Awareness Is Not the Same as Self-Criticism
One of the most important ideas from the conversation is Isabelle’s concept of “meta-awareness.” Rather than simply noticing what you do, meta-awareness is the ability to understand why you do it.
It’s the difference between saying, “I struggle with this task,” and asking, “What conditions make this task harder for me?”
That shift matters because it moves people out of judgment and into observation.
For some, that may look like recognizing they make better decisions later in the day. For others, it may mean realizing meetings drain energy more than writing, or that too many choices at once create overwhelm.
Meta-awareness is not about labeling yourself or putting limits on what you can do. It’s about gathering information. The more you understand your own patterns, the easier it becomes to stop interpreting friction as personal failure.
And that becomes a leadership skill. Leaders who understand themselves often become more capable of understanding others.
Accommodation Is Not Weakness
One of the strongest ideas that emerges from the conversation is how accommodations are framed.
For many people, the word sounds clinical or formal, something reserved for workplaces or medical conversations. But Isabelle and JJ describe accommodations in a much more human way.
An accommodation is simply a way of helping yourself function well.
JJ shares a small but meaningful example: preparing coffee the night before. Not because he cannot make coffee, but because reducing morning decisions creates ease. He describes it as “night JJ taking care of morning JJ.”
That reframing matters because it removes shame from the equation. Accommodation is not proof that you are incapable. It is evidence that you understand what supports you.
Leaders often encourage accommodations for teams through flexible schedules, walking meetings, visual planning, or clearer expectations. Yet many struggle to extend that same care to themselves.
If you want to better understand what accommodations may help you function more effectively, Isabelle Richards created the ADHD Focus & Flow Finder—a tool designed to help people identify what supports attention, energy, and productivity in practical ways.
👉 Download the ADHD Focus & Flow Finder
Leadership Was Never Meant to Be One-Size-Fits-All
This idea of alignment extends beyond neurodivergence.
In an earlier conversation with strategist Macy Robison, Dr. J.J. Peterson explored how many people struggle because they are trying to force themselves into methods that do not match how they naturally communicate.
The tension is remarkably similar.
When your method does not align with how you naturally function, things begin to feel harder than they should.
That applies to content.
And it applies to leadership.
If the connection between alignment, self-awareness, and how we naturally function resonates, this related exploration on communication style and resonance offers another perspective on why forcing yourself into the wrong method often creates friction:
Both conversations point toward the same truth:
The problem may not be that you need to become someone else.
The problem may be that you have never been given permission to understand yourself.
The Best Leaders Understand Themselves First
Leadership is often framed around influence, communication, confidence, and decision-making. Those qualities matter, but self-awareness may be the skill underneath all of them.
Leaders who understand themselves tend to recognize what environments help them thrive. They become better at building systems that reduce unnecessary friction, creating psychologically safe spaces for others, and noticing when team members may be masking or struggling.
They also become less likely to reward sameness over effectiveness.
Perhaps most importantly, self-aware leaders become less reactive to their own limitations. Instead of interpreting struggle as weakness, they become more curious about what support or structure may be needed.
That shift doesn’t just improve leadership performance. It changes how people experience work and how teams learn to function together.
A Different Kind of Leadership Question
Most leaders ask:
“How do I become more disciplined?”
But a better question might be:
“How do I work best?”
Because understanding yourself isn’t indulgent. It’s strategic.
And it may be one of the most overlooked leadership skills there is.
If this idea resonates, explore more of Isabelle Richards’ work through the Something Shiny ADHD Podcast, where she and co-host David Kessler share conversations about neurodivergence, self-understanding, relationships, and executive functioning.
👉 Explore the Something Shiny Podcast
When people stop fighting the way they naturally function, they often discover they were never the problem to begin with.
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Isabelle Richards: That's a feature of ADHD. Our brains function completely differently when there is urgency and excitement and threat. Anything that produces adrenaline and dopamine. So I'm stalling out. I don't know what's going on, but because I know why that's happening, I can then know what my need is. And my need in that moment is not to beat myself up.
My need is for help. I think there's gonna be a lot of tears today.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson, and today no shade to other people. But this may have been my favorite conversation so far because today my guest is Isabelle Richards, who is a licensed therapist and co-host of the Something Shiny, ADHD podcast, which is dedicated to increasing understanding of ADHD and supporting neurodivergent people. And my favorite thing about it is it really just features honest conversations and insights and kind of these like wow moments that are designed to help listeners build healthier relationships with their neurodivergence and ADHD.
And she has a really amazing way of taking these complex internal experiences and putting language to them in a way that feels, frankly freeing. And in particular, she's become known for how she talks about neurodivergence, or as she calls it, neuros spicy. So you're gonna hear us talk a lot today about neuro spiciness and how she really works to help people move from confusion and self-judgment into clarity and self-trust.
So I loved this conversation so much, and if you or someone you love has ever felt that they're just trying to succeed in a system that doesn't quite fit for them, you're going to love this conversation too. Here is my conversation with Isabelle Richards.
Isabelle, I am so excited you're here for so many reasons.
A, I adore you and love talking with you, but B, you have shared with me. Different things about living with and being neuros spicy that have changed my life. Changed my life in so many ways, and helped me be a better parent, be a better partner, be kinder to myself and above all things you, gave us our very favorite wedding gift that we got from anybody, which was this embroidered piece that probably will be on display here at some point, but it genuinely is our most favorite thing that we see every day, and it makes me smile.
And on top of all that, you've also continued to grow your own practice and your own podcast and help people literally around the world, navigate neuro spiciness, which is what we're gonna talk about today, and how to lean into that, stop the shame spiral, and really actually succeed in whole new ways.
Understanding themselves better. And so, you truly are a badass softie. And that's why I'm so excited you're here today.
Isabelle Richards: Oh, well, I know. Oh, JJ. So it's so mutual and I'm so, I'm so honored. I am so thrilled. I also, I have to say, I have to compose myself because that feels like the kindest thing anyone has ever said to me.
I feel like that's like such a mark of. I don't know. It's like such a badge of honor to hear you say that, especially. So I'm so grateful. And also, side note, I'm grateful that because let's, let's be frank, this embroidery took about a year and a half to get to you, so I don't know if it counted as a wedding present any more?
It it still did. It still did, but it definitely, it was amazing. Speaking of neuro spice, it lived in a gift bag near our entryway. So that clearly I would notice it on my way out the door to the car. And yeah, it took about a year and a half to get to you, so.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Oh well. It works every day.
Isabelle Richards: Appreciate
Dr. JJ Peterson: your patience with every day.
Isabelle Richards: Appreciate your patience. Very much
Dr. JJ Peterson: so in the intro I talked a little bit about neuros spicy, and we are talking about neuros spicy right now. And you are a therapist. A licensed therapist who has spent a lot of your time working specifically with people who you describe and have kind of termed this idea of neuros spicy, and I love that term, but could you describe that for us a little bit?
When you say neuros spicy, what do you mean?
Isabelle Richards: Yes, this is, okay, so this is a great question. Long story short, the term neurodivergent, which some of you may have heard before, is a term that is used to describe anyone whose brain is what sometimes is called not neurotypical, or not neuro conform, AKA.
It's like those who move through the world differently. In a nutshell, it also means anyone who suspects or knows they have ADHD. Autism. OCD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, all kinds of learning differences, right? And sensory processing differences. And I think the biggest takeaway is it's, okay, put it this way, these are not, diseases or disorders technically, even though I know, right?
Like ADHD has this name of. Attention deficit Hyperactive Disorder Disorder. It's in the name? Oh, like side note, biggest misnomer. And I can walk through why, but these aren't really disorders in the sense that there's something wrong. I think what can happen, especially in my field, is people notice, notice something's up when like they have a big life change.
Maybe they started their own business and they lost a bunch of structure and accommodations they didn't realize they had, and suddenly things feel really hard. They have a hard time getting started or finishing or feeling like they're burned out all the time. Right. And where people like me, therapists come in is we come in and then we say, ha ha.
Look. Clearly some of these differences in how your brain and nervous system are processing the world are now connected to how you're able to engage in anything that involves prioritizing, making decisions, step by step sequencing, all kinds of things. We also know as executive functioning, seeing ahead,
Dr. JJ Peterson: yeah,
Isabelle Richards: planning ahead.
Knowing that something will take, two hours and then stopping after two hours. For example, remembering that you made the embroidery for your dear, dear friend need to who you've seen at some point in those year, year and a half, right? So, so anyway, so neuros spicy is like, I, I think my, my colleague David Kessler and I, we do this podcast, something shiny.
A lot of people say neurodivergent, neurodivergent. And at some point we just started saying neuros spicy. 'cause it felt a little more like, I dunno, it just feels more accurate. Because you know one person. You know one person.
Isabelle Richards: We live all of these live across huge spectrums of experience and so even the concept that like.
You know, some of us are divergent and some of us aren't. Is like kind of confusing, honestly. Like, I don't know. Who knows 10 years from now how we're gonna talk about it. And I feel like neuros spicy feels like more accurate to me.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I would imagine. So I'm gonna put this back on you, but I would imagine that part of your work is really just.
First, it's probably starts with awareness and then it starts with some mindset shifts about what that means for people like both for themselves and for the people who they love.
Isabelle Richards: Like you wouldn't begrudge a spicy dish that it's spicy. Right. It's just is how it is. And that is a huge feature of all of these different varieties of neuro spiciness or neurodivergence is you, it's happening in the womb. This is how you are born. It's not something to cure or fix or change. And sometimes when you don't know that's what's going on, it feels like you got the inaccurate like operator's manual. For your brain, for your life, for relationships, for work. So it's interesting like when you're asking if I'm hearing right, like what is.
The steps. You've got this right. You know someone, you are that person. This resonating side note, I if I didn't share already, I am Audi DHD, which is a fancy way of saying I have au I am autistic and also have ADHD. So I think the first piece is exactly what you said, and another way to name it is meta awareness.
Hmm. So it's not just like knowing that, okay. Like. I'm gonna have a hard time. Sometimes I'm gonna be all gas, no breaks, and I'm gonna be really impulsive and I'm gonna be really excited about something, a project I'm doing, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna give 180% and then I'm gonna totally blow past like my bodily cues.
I'm gonna forget to drink water and have lunch and take breaks and move, and then at the end of the day, I'm gonna be real cranky at everyone, for example, right? Like I'm going to be in that mode and other times I'm gonna be completely paralyzed with even what feels like a, such a simple decision, like literally what to have for lunch.
I'll just almost like lock down and freeze and be so overwhelmed. So, okay, these things happen. Cool. Now, what is meta awareness? Meta awareness is, is the ability to, not just in the moment, but overall have an awareness of why you think and do what you do. Mm. So for example, like I might be frozen. Trying to figure out what to order at the, you know, takeout place.
And I'm standing there. I'm standing there, and finally I just say out loud, for example, something I do. I go, I'm sorry, my brain is just, it's not turning on right now. What do you like? Can you help me out? What's a good thing to order? That is an accommodation. So what I can do if I know, oh yeah, sometimes my brain is just gonna completely stall when I have to make a choice.
Because of that, knowing that actually there's nothing to be ashamed of. This is just how my brain and executive functioning work. Honestly, in all likelihood, if someone was threatening me or scaring me, or there was something super exciting to order, I wouldn't have the same issue. Right? Because that's a feature of ADHD, our brains.
Function completely differently when there is urgency and excitement and threat. Anything that produces adrenaline. And dopamine. Right? So I'm stalling out. I don't know what's going on. And, but because I know why that's happening, I can then know what my need is. And my need in that moment is not to beat myself up, and it's not to melt down as much as I might want to sometimes. My need is for help.
And I think that's a huge piece of the healing. And that's where sort of I would argue I come in. It's not fixing or curing your brain and nervous system. It's, it's not, and it's also not just accepting them. It's almost like repairing all the wounds you have suffered across time because you thought you were supposed to be different than how you really are
Dr. JJ Peterson: that, sorry. Well, no, you're making me cry. Okay. Sorry for a lot of different reasons in that. I think there's gonna be a lot of tears today, but I think that's so powerful that the idea of meta-awareness. I think it's just kind of like that the brain does. N need certain things. It's not even just that.
It's how you respond, but it's actually, there's a need there. Right. And so understanding and honoring that need, letting go of the shame, which is so much harder to do than just saying it. And then creating accommodations for yourself or again, for other areas. It's like for other people you work with, right?
Like so even myself, I will admit, I've never. I've never been diagnosed with ADHD. There are times where I go, am my, you know, and, but I will say that there are times even for myself, that I make accommodations for myself in order to get through certain seasons or periods of a day even.
Hmm. So, like, in the morning for me. It's not good for me to try to figure out what I'm having for breakfast. I should have that. I make coffee in the, in the, in the machine, be the night before, so I have it ready to go in the morning. So getting up and like figuring out how many scoops to put in, it doesn't do well for me.
So I figure out what it is the night before. I already know what I'm having for breakfast for myself and for my son and my daughter. And we know exactly, we make the same things or they make choices for the week. And then I. Don't want to think about the clothes that I have to wear and what could, because I know if I have to make those choices, it's not just about burning calories, but I really do sometimes freeze and I don't feel good.
So I've made those accommodations for myself. In order to function the way that I need to function. And so even, and I've started thinking in terms specifically of the coffee at night. Is this is a way that I can care for myself. Like, you know that I get night, JJ gets to to care for morning JJ, you know?
Yes. Yes. And so it's not like, oh, I have to do something in order to function. I see it as a way of caring for myself. That's what an accommodation is. In that context for me is I think that I hear you and I say in that moment when you're pausing too. Say something to, to order something. That moment of you saying, I need some help, is you caring for yourself?
Isabelle Richards: Yes.
Dr. JJ Peterson: And yes. I think that's what kind of, in some ways, accommodations are and caring for others, caring for yourself and all of that. And so if I, I, I'm talking a lot here 'cause I get excited about when you're saying these things.
Isabelle Richards: I love it. I love
Dr. JJ Peterson: it. But you, you know, you mentioned this idea of that a lot about is healing the wounds of.
Who you thought you were supposed to be.
Dr. JJ Peterson: And I think can you just expand on that a little bit more because I think that's so powerful of, there's so much of times we get, we've talked about getting caught in the shame spiral of who we are supposed to be.
Dr. JJ Peterson: So I guess I, I actually kinda wanna get a little practical.
How do you then like. Just stop doing that, you know, because it's obviously much harder than just go. So don't, don't feel shame. Just don't, just don't feel ashamed. It's so much easier if you don't feel shame.
Isabelle Richards: You, you know what's really clutch is like, let's shame ourselves
Dr. JJ Peterson: about
Isabelle Richards: out of, not shaming.
Oh, that's such a good question, JJ. Side note and I say this to everyone listening like I would if I had the trick to like just snap your fingers and move past it. I would totally pass it out for free. Like all the time. I think the closest thing to it is I think what the thing you were getting at, right, which is a piece of it is also knowing that, okay, so here's a fun factoid, shame is in general a pretty hi, highly uncomfortable emotion, right? Yeah, it is. It makes you, your, your face flushes, your heartbeats. You feel like you just wanna sink into the earth and disappear. Not necessarily in like a conscious sense, but in like, ugh, this is too much. It's that overwhelming fascinatingly shame or states like irritability.
Or anger, power struggles, debating, also excitement, sex, drugs, rock and roll. You know, anything that kind of does that, these are all stimuli in our environment. Think of it this way, shame is a part of your environment. It's a part of what's happening to you physiologically in your body, right? So all of those states, including shame, produce adrenaline and guess what? Adrenaline produces dopamine. And you know what a brain with ADHD is starving for. And aside note, there's a lot of research, but this is something everyone can agree on, is dopamine. So here's the weird part. Shame is, for lack of a better word, incredibly rewarding to a brain with ADHD, even though it makes us ex like miserable and can completely deflate and destroy any sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Yes.
So does that make sense? It's almost like our brains can actually be, in a way, really. Put it this way, especially when you're struggling with something, especially when you feel like, oh my gosh, I can't get started. Oh, I can't focus. Oh, or, or sometimes when you're under pressure, it feels like you always figure it out and pull it out at the last minute and suddenly you can't, and your panicking and the shame hits, well, guess what?
Your body has just given you this sweet little gift. But it's not fun. Where it's stressing you out, essentially, which is like, in essence, it's like self-medicating. You're literally giving yourself more dopamine, which might make it a little easier to then attend to or focus or finish or start.
So what do I, what do we do to this one?
One, it's to acknowledge that like, actually, and I mean this, I've worked with neuros spicy people for year, you know, over a decade now. We are like the best at shaming ourselves. I mean, the shame spars we go on are not like light and Oh, I guess I'm just, you know, having a bad day. No, these are like, I am the scum of the earth.
I don't deserve to have this sandwich, you know? Yeah, right. Like really low. One thing to think about is, okay, cool. Now we know our brain in a way is doing that because it's trying to give us a stimulus. It's trying to help us even though it's really not fun.
Isabelle Richards: Given that, and this is gonna be the little like mental martial art move, okay?
You use the momentum of that and you go, you switch it into specific gratitude. Okay? So what you do is you go, ah. Oh, I'm so grateful I now know that shame is really reinforcing, and so now I choose to be grateful that I know that. It seems silly. It seems like it's not gonna work. And the weird part is, is it will, why specific gratitude, like, and I mean specific in that moment about the circumstance or the situation.
That style of gratitude has been shown to actually be producing a whole flood of other neurotransmitters that then can over time replace the shame as a stimulant. I know that's weird. Is
Dr. JJ Peterson: that No, no. I've, which, I've been doing a lot of study on Joy recently. And specifically about gratitude and what that does to your neuro system and what it does to your physical system.
Even like in reducing inflammation and all this other stuff. So it totally makes sense. And it's, so I somebody the other day and it's like, it's so funny that. We go, oh, well if you think about happy things, you're gonna start to be happier. And we're like, no, we won't. You know what I mean? Like, we're like, and then you do it and you're like, oh, this works.
And it, you know? And it's not just that simple. Like, again, we're not, I'm not saying that to be dismissive and just go, well, just be happy. Or just, just be g gr Have gratitude when you feel shame. Like, we know it's harder than that. But there are these things when you understand this, is that that.
That, what do you call it? Me? Meta Meta awareness. Meta ction. Meta awareness. When you have a meta awareness of what your body is doing and what your brain is doing, then you can actually lean into the systems versus fighting the systems. Yeah, because I think that's what you're talking about here is understanding, or at least that's what I'm getting
is this idea that when you understand how the brain works, when you understand how your brain works instead of fighting it and feeling shame, you lean into it, but you lean into it in ways that actually are healthy. Err. Or feel better for you and help you move forward and accomplish the task you wanna accomplish.
Because it's not that you don't wanna order. No. Yeah, I'm hungry. I do wanna it's like you wanna order. So if you want to accomplish that task, how do you lean into the things that allow you to be, to accomplish that task? And I think the meta awareness. Is so important and, you know, and so I think, you know, one of the other things I would just be curious about for you, like, so let's, how can, okay, so let's say I am working with somebody
Who I see lean into some of these areas that they're struggling with some of this.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I'm not a professional. They have not asked me to heal them. They have not asked for my help.
Isabelle Richards: Yes. Yes.
Dr. JJ Peterson: And I, but I see 'em struggling at, with like a, they're on my team and we, we have to accomplish some tasks and they are getting caught up in this moment.
What are ways that somebody who maybe is on the outside. Can approach or create accommodation for in a way that is helpful versus hurtful. Because I think a lot of times, you know, if I'm coming in and I'm on the team, I'm just like, well just focus, you know, something like that, you know? Or just, yes, yes.
Or just make a decision, you know? Like, I don't understand why you can't just make a decision. But obviously that's not helpful. So then how do I create a safe space for accommodation for them to be able to do it for themselves, but also. The environment that I'm providing.
Isabelle Richards: Oh, that's such a great question.
One, of course you're asking that question because you're like your, oh, your compassion's so great. I feel your empathy. It, it's so great.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I'm gonna cry so much.
Isabelle Richards: I know. I'm gonna keep, I'm like, I can't look at you actually. Okay. This is a good question. I love that question. Okay. Well, one thing, I mean, just to back up for a moment, the thing you said where it's like, you know, the instinct to go hurry up.
Make the decision like goodness, like this. The thing to know too about something like ADHD, autism OCD, like again, this is not a conscious choice. This is not like a personal decision. I am not attempting to frustrate the 20 people in line behind me by taking a really, really long time to order my meal, let's say, or in this case, I don't wanna be the person on a team that's letting everyone down.
So what happens is a lot of people. Who have some kind of neuro spice, whether they're aware of it or not. Another fun factoid in general, if you're not a cishet white boy, essentially born in the nineties, your odds of getting diagnosed with any of these accurately, you're, you're gonna be diagnosed with anxiety, depression, all kinds of things.
It takes about an average 10 years more to even realize that this is what's going on. So a lot of the people you're working with may have have less clue than you. If that makes sense. The thing that happens is what's called masking. Back in the day, in the autism community, they also called it camouflaging because goodness, it felt dangerous to be openly, demonstrating behaviors connected to autism, like stemming engaging in repetitive movement or making repetitive sounds or mimicking some what someone said to you, right?
Like that was flat out dangerous. Nowadays we call it masking and a lot of folks are. Sometimes land in what's called the high masking category, which means that they do, and I rank myself in this group with some pride. All, you know, something to note is a lot of times even when we think we're really good at masking, but when someone, when when, when I tell someone like, guess what I learned?
I'm, I'm autistic. They're like, yeah, like, I'm still sort of the last to know. But that's okay. But the idea of masking is that it is. Our ability in a way to have, because we are raised in a world that is so predominantly neuro-conforming, right? Think about school, think about work, think about how everything commuting, get, you know, buying groceries, everything is sort of predicated on your ability to executive function at a certain level.
And in fact, this is something they, you know, really drill down in schools and they really emphasize in,
Dr. JJ Peterson: schools are built around that.
Isabelle Richards: Built around it. Right. Goodness. Even traditional therapeutic approaches are gar, you know, based on this, goodness, I'd say a lot of management and leadership and business strategies, a hundred percent are based on the idea that like, okay, everyone's thinking the same way about the same stuff, right?
So now imagine you've, you've swam in that water your whole life. I as someone who is neuros spicy, I know how to speak neurotypical language. Yep. I know how to neuro conform. I know right now you may not see this if you're not watching and that's fine. I am squeezing my hands together because all I wanna do is drum which is the way I stem drum my fingers on the table..
But I know that's gonna be distracting, so I know how to do this. I am so good. At showing up exactly in a, in a way that's extremely effortful.
Isabelle Richards: So what does this mean? This means if someone was to come up to me before I'm ready and say, Hey Isabelle, I'm noticing you seem to send all your emails at 2:00 AM.
What's that about? Are you working after hours? Because that's something a lot of us do. I don't, it takes me more or less time to do certain things. I may work different hours. I may think in my best zone at different odd times. Time doesn't mean the same thing to me, that it might tell someone else, for example, what, you know, you could probably guess what happens.
I get extremely defensive because you're, you're threatening the part of me that has desperately, often out of survival attempts to not let anyone see, yeah, that this is as hard for me as it is. And so the idea is ultimately for that person themselves, I mean truly it takes some, a lot of self work, right?
For them to openly unmask. 'cause again, research also shows that a lot of times when people openly, and I know workplaces can be fraught with other legal disability related questions and accommodations, like that word means something different in the business world, right? But in general. People's responses to disclosures.
Not necessarily, Hey, I have ADHD, but maybe, Hey, sometimes I just, I, when I, I have too much on my mind. I feel so overloaded. I kind of just want us all to write this out. Can we just like write it out on the whiteboard together? 'cause that helps me. That type of thing has been found to be incredibly well met.
Like most humans are gonna go, yay. Yes. Now. We, it's almost like you're giving them clues as to how to help you. Mm. So for you, the friend, the parent, the, sibling, the boss, the coworker of someone. I'd say start with yourself. Mm. Start unmasking and, and again in a different way if you're not neuros spicy, but we all carry a persona.
We all pretend we're not vulnerable. I mean, that's partly why I am like in deep, deep. Love with badass softie is because it's like actually encouraging what, again, psychological research supports is like a very, very fundamental thing. We need in order to, we need psychological safety in a workspace.
And so the way that you can create psychological safety is by modeling the thing that you wish anyone would do? Like, one great example is actually to write an a, a, like a, a user manual. For your team. Like, hey, like you can, and you don't have to be neuros spicy to do this. You can sum up and say, Hey, I'm learn.
I learned that I do best when my meetings are in the afternoons. I do best when we do meetings a bit shorter. I love snacks. I wish we could go on walks to have me. You know, you just list out some of those things and when you can know that all openly, the onus isn't on this one person to literally like overcome already the shame and pain of disclosing.
Let alone if they're not necessarily aware of it.
Isabelle Richards: Does that, I talk so long.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I hope that it's helpful. No, I loved it because I think, you know, there was a million things I was thinking of through that and I think even the, the modeling piece I think is so huge for leaders to be able to s to create a safe space for people to succeed.
This is, you know, and that's the part about badass softie that it's like, I think when we are Well here, lemme back up one more. The other day somebody said to me. What? What do you think we need more of in the world? I was on a podcast interview that I said, what do you need more of in the world? And of course my first gut instinct was like kindness and love and peace and all of those things.
And I said, audacity.
Isabelle Richards: Mm.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Because I actually believe that if more of us were audacious enough to be ourselves and not in an aggressive like. I'm throwing it in your face. Well, that's just who I am kind of way. But if we actually show up as our fullest form of our humans side, internal and external, that the world would be a better place.
We would actually be able to solve more problems. We would be able to make bigger connections. We would have more creativity, we'd have more beauty in the world. And so when you as a leader can model. Showing up as your fullest self and being honest and vulnerable about, Hey, here's where I, and it, it doesn't even have to be like crazy, like, I struggle with this, you know, like internal, but it can be like, here, it's actually hard for me in the morning when we do this, you know?
And here's what I'm hoping for. Like, if we could do meetings like this, or we can, can we go on a walk once a day? You know, things like that that you're talking about. Allow then other people to speak up and be audacious about being themselves as well. And it may matter more in many ways to what they're experiencing than even for yourself.
Dr. JJ Peterson: And what that will do, again, it will create more connection. It will create more success for the individual. It will ultimately help your team get along better. Them feel like they're safe in that. I mean, there's the heart side of it all for me that I'm just like. It's obvious that you need to be a good person and do these things.
But then the other part is also like, hey, you say you wanna improve retention on your team. Then don't be a jerk. Like, like, don't make everybody think like you, like don't make everybody fall into the way you do things. 'cause then you're gonna lose anybody who brings anything different to the table.
You're gonna lose the spice.
Dr. JJ Peterson: And then when we lose the spice, we lose the fiesta. And like get all
Isabelle Richards: goes, we lose the door, we lose all the things. Okay. Yes.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Okay. And so it's, it's, it's not just about like I, to me it's all the things, it all goes together. Being good, being a good human, providing safe space for people helps you be even more successful as a leader and as a company and all the things.
And so I am just, I, I mean we, I say this with, with a few of my guests, but. Probably more you than anybody else. We could, we could talk for hours. I mean, we talked for you know, an hour before we started. Yes. We'll probably talk an hour after we're done. I would, I welcome it. Always. Yes. But I am just so grateful for the work that you do and, the way that you help people understand and themselves and the people that they love, and the people they work with.
Like I said, you know, even with me, you, we, we had some very specific conversations about, my parenting and you were, you were gentle, but there was a moment too where you just said, oh yeah, no, like, I think, I think that might be a direct quote. The direct quote was, oh yeah, no, no, no. And, and you helped me connect more with my family. And then also have challenged me in my professional space as well. And I mean that in a positive way, you know, to, to help me be better about understanding and, and again, I could with myself, you've helped me be more understanding and more gracious to myself and in the things as well. So for people who want to.
I mean, you and I get to continue this. Well, we're gonna do it over chips and margaritas. Yes, please. But for people who would like to continue in these kind of conversations, where can they find you?
Isabelle Richards: Oh, well, again, so mutual. I'm so excited for that. Chips and margaritas. But yes, anyone can look up something shiny, which is a podcast, my colleague David Kessler and I do anywhere you find your podcasts.
And also we do have something called a focus and flow finder, which is designed to help you trace your steps and help you figure out what accommodations you need to accomplish a certain task. And you can go find that@somethingshinypodcast.com slash finder.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Oh my gosh. Well I'm getting it too. I haven't get that too.
I mean, I do
Isabelle Richards: use it,
Dr. JJ Peterson: so I love it. Well, thank you so much. I mean, truthfully, I think this was such a gift for our listeners. It was such a gift for me. And thank you for being here. And thank you for being a badass softie.
Isabelle Richards: Sorry,
I actually can't like the sweetest thing ever. We can. Okay. We can.
Dr. JJ Peterson: You're
Isabelle Richards: the best. JJ, thank, thank you so much.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I mean, come on. Right Ma, do you see how much I love her and why? I think now you're gonna love her too. And I really want you to go and listen to the Something Shiny ADHD podcast. It's so incredible and learn so much from it.
And the thing that I'm really taking away from today, I mean obviously there is so much here, but I think for all of us, it really is approaching our day-to-day and our world with a little bit more kindness for ourselves, that if we can all show up with a little bit more kindness for who we are and the way that we are made and the way that we function really in the world, when we do that for ourselves, it allows us to do that for other people.
And when you can be kind to yourself and then show up vulnerably and share what you need and what helps you navigate the day, it allows other people to do that as well. And so being able to do that for yourself is one thing, but doing, being able to do that for others is a whole other level of bringing goodness and grace and kindness and joy to the world.
And so that's what I'm taking away from today, and I hope that you can learn in through this conversation and others to also just be a little more kind to yourself. And so let me leave you with this. May you begin to understand your mind with curiosity instead of judgment. May you find the language for what you felt but couldn't quite explain.
May you give yourself the kind of care and accommodations you've always tried to offer to others, but never to yourself. And may you learn to work with how you are wired instead of fighting against it, and build a life where you can actually succeed as yourself. Because we believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun, and driven, powerful and deeply human.
Your leadership can inspire your success, can have soul, and your ambition can make space for everyone. That's why you are a badass softie. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. BadassSoffie.com is crafted by fruitful design and strategy.