Some Beliefs Don't Survive Growth
What happens when life challenges what you've always believed?
Melissa Greene joins Dr. J.J. Peterson for a conversation about growth, identity, curiosity, and why changing your mind can feel like changing your entire world. Together, they explore how relationships, experience, and a willingness to keep learning can reshape the way we see ourselves and others.
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Most of us wouldn't expect to have the same knowledge, experiences, or perspective we had twenty years ago. Life has a way of changing us. We meet people, travel to new places, read books, and have experiences that teach us things we couldn't have known before.
And yet, when it comes to our beliefs, there can be this strange expectation that they should remain exactly the same.
If something felt true at 20, it should still feel true at 40. If we change our minds, maybe it means we weren't thinking hard enough before. If our views evolve, maybe it means we got something wrong.
The more I think about it, the stranger that expectation feels.
That idea came up repeatedly in my conversation with Melissa Greene. Many people know Melissa as a member of the Grammy-nominated Christian music group Avalon. Others know her as a speaker, writer, advocate, and former pastor.
What struck me most during our conversation wasn't simply that some of her views have changed over time. It was her willingness to talk honestly about how change actually happens.
It rarely starts with an argument.
More often, it starts with an experience.
Melissa talked about how travel and reading became two of her greatest teachers. As she encountered new people, cultures, perspectives, and stories, some of the assumptions she had inherited no longer fit as neatly as they once did. Life experiences began bumping up against beliefs she had always held, and she found herself facing questions she couldn't ignore.
Growth Usually Begins With More Exposure
Melissa credits travel and reading as two of the greatest influences on her growth. I don't think that's accidental.
Both force us beyond the limits of our own experience. Travel introduces us to people, cultures, and realities we might never encounter otherwise. Reading allows us to step into lives we'll never live ourselves. Both expand our understanding of the world.
Melissa talked about how travel and reading exposed her to realities that didn't fit neatly inside the framework she inherited. That's often how growth happens—not because someone wins an argument, but because life introduces us to experiences our old assumptions can't fully explain.
It's one thing to hold an opinion about a group of people you've never met. It's another thing entirely when that group suddenly includes someone you know, love, respect, or work alongside.
Relationships have a way of complicating simple narratives. So do books. So does travel. So does life.
Many of the beliefs we carry aren't formed through firsthand experience. They're inherited. We absorb them from our families, our communities, our institutions, and the culture around us. Most of the time we don't even realize we're carrying them.
Then life introduces us to something that doesn't fit.
A person enters our life who contradicts a stereotype.
A conversation complicates a simple narrative.
An experience forces us to confront a reality we hadn't previously considered.
That's often where growth begins.
Why Changing Your Mind Feels So Threatening
One of the most insightful parts of our conversation centered on why changing your mind can feel so difficult.
From the outside, it often seems simple. If new information becomes available, why not update your beliefs?
Because beliefs are rarely just beliefs.
They're connected to identity, relationships, belonging, and community. They're connected to the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and where we fit.
When someone changes their mind, they may be risking acceptance from the very community that helped shape them. They may be questioning assumptions they've carried for decades. They may be reevaluating how they understand themselves and their place in the world.
In other words, changing your mind can feel like changing your entire world.
That doesn't mean every belief should change. But it does help explain why change is often slower, messier, and more emotional than we expect.
The Difference Between Shame and Growth
Another thing I appreciated about Melissa was the way she talked about previous versions of herself.
She didn't pretend she had always gotten everything right. She didn't deny things she once believed. But she also didn't approach her past with shame.
Instead, she approached it with compassion. She recognized that she was doing the best she could with the information, experiences, and understanding she had at the time.
I think that's an important distinction.
Shame tends to keep us stuck. It encourages us to hide from the past, distance ourselves from it, or pretend it never existed. Growth invites us to learn from it.
If we can't extend grace to our former selves, it becomes difficult to understand how we arrived where we are today. We become more interested in judging the past than learning from it.
The people who continue growing throughout life aren't necessarily the people who never get things wrong.
They're the people who remain willing to learn.
Some Beliefs Don't Survive Growth
One of the ideas I kept coming back to after my conversation with Melissa is how differently we think about growth in other areas of life.
Most of us would never expect to have the same knowledge at 40 that we had at 20. We wouldn't expect to have the same experiences, the same relationships, or the same perspective. In fact, we usually view those changes as signs that we've lived a full life.
Yet when it comes to our beliefs, there can be an unspoken expectation that consistency is always the goal.
If we change our minds, maybe it means we were wrong. If our views evolve, maybe it means we weren't paying attention before. If we see things differently now, maybe it somehow invalidates the person we used to be.
But what if growth is supposed to change us?
What if some beliefs don't survive because they were tested against new experiences, new information, and a larger understanding of the world?
That doesn't mean every belief should change. It doesn't mean every new idea is automatically better than an old one. But it does mean that growth leaves a mark.
As Melissa shared stories from her own life, I found myself thinking that perhaps the goal isn't to stay exactly the same person year after year. Maybe the goal is to remain open enough to keep learning.
The people who continue growing throughout life aren't necessarily the people who never change their minds.
They're the people who remain willing to ask questions, pay attention, and let life teach them something new.
Some beliefs don't survive growth.
And maybe they're not supposed to.
Staying Curious in a Complex World
As Melissa and I talked, I realized this conversation wasn't really about theology.
It wasn't even about changing your mind.
It was about curiosity and the willingness to stay open. The willingness to ask questions. And the willingness to admit that our understanding might be incomplete.
Curiosity doesn't require us to abandon our convictions. It simply requires enough humility to recognize that there may still be more to learn.
In a world that often rewards certainty, that can be difficult.
But I think it's necessary. Life has a way of becoming more complicated as we grow older. We meet people who challenge our assumptions. We encounter experiences that don't fit neatly into our existing frameworks. We discover that some questions don't have easy answers.
The question isn't whether that will happen.
It's how we'll respond when it does.
Will we cling tighter to certainty?
Or will we stay curious enough to keep learning?
Perhaps the healthiest sign of growth isn't that we've become more certain. It's that we've become more curious. More compassionate. More willing to let life teach us something we didn't know before.
After all, the goal isn't to stay the same person.
The goal is to keep growing.
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[00:00:00] A Belief That Never Sat Right
Melissa Greene: Just early on in my life, experiences started to butt up against things that I was taught that was telling me, "No, there is no room for growth. There is no room for change on this thought or who you ultimately then are." I remember early even in high school sitting in the pew and hearing a pastor say, "You would be unequally yoked if you married or dated someone of a different color."
And I remember being like, "Wait, what?" And, and me looking around at my predominantly large white mega church and saying, "Nobody's like... Nobody... This... Wait, no?"
[00:00:35] Meet Melissa Greene
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson, and today is a very fun conversation for me, and I think it's gonna be for you, too, because I am talking with my good friend Melissa Greene.
Now, if you grew up around Christian music in the early 2000s, which I did, there is a good chance you've heard Melissa's voice because she spent nearly seven years as a member of the Grammy-nominated group Avalon and helped create some of the songs that really became a soundtrack to many people's faith journeys, including my own.
I remember singing some of those songs at the top of my lungs back in the day. And I loved Avalon. I loved Melissa. I remember seeing them on TV. They had a huge impact on me. And I, over the years, have become friends with Melissa because after she left the group, she went on to serve as a pastor w- at a church that I actually belonged to for a while, but she has then gone on to do even more things.
She is a speaker. She is a writer. Um, she has started a nonprofit. She's an advocate for people navigating faith and identity and change. And she's even kind of moved beyond the Christian space. And recently, just a couple weeks ago from this recording, she joined fellow m- former Avalon member Michael Passons and country music artist Ty Herndon in a reimagined release of the song Testify To Love, which was a huge Avalon hit.
And this thing has blown up and reached number one on the Christian charts right now. As we are ge- talking, it is number one. And they did it in a way, because both Michael and Ty are gay, where they introduced the song, this beloved song that so many of us grew up on, to a new generation, but bringing it into a broader conversation about love and belonging.
[00:02:52] Why This Conversation Is About More Than Theology
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And before we jump in, I, I wanna offer kinda this quick note, is that faith and theology come up a lot in this conversation because they're a part of both Melissa's and my story. And so we talk about doctrine. We talk about theology. But really this episode isn't about theology. It, it's about something much bigger It's about growth, and it's about what happens when life challenges what you've always believed about yourself and the world.
It's, about the courage to change when change feels really uncomfortable, and it's about learning that becoming who you are meant to be often requires letting go of who you thought you had to be. And I think all of us can relate to that conversation. Melissa has spent so much of her life navigating change in public, and that's the part that we even get into a little bit more, is she was very public.
Through music and ministry and family and friendship and personal growth, she's continued to ask the hard questions and follow the truth wherever it leads. And this conversation is honest and thoughtful and deeply human, and it's really for anyone who has left an old version of themselves behind, or maybe you're just in the space of wondering if it's okay to change your mind.
Melissa and I really talk about what that journey is like. So I'm so excited for you to hear my conversation today with Melissa Greene.
Melissa, I am so excited you're here for a lot of different reasons. But, you know, you and I have now known each other, I don't know, uh, actually, I think we met about 10 years ago.
Yeah. And, from the very beginning, you have been a person in my life who has lived in such a way that has inspired me to seek excellence in a lot of areas. Like, so when you put on events, when you gather people around you, when you, host things, and when you even perform, you do things with such excellence that is not demanded of you, but you take it to that level.
So there's just, that piece, the excellence piece. But you do excellence with kindness and intentionality that I don't find in a lot of people. You're very thoughtful about how you bring people into the situations, how you curate, not only things for the people attending, but the people participating.
And we've been a part of a number of different projects together, and I have just watched the way that you've carried yourself through all of it, and I have been so inspired and challenged on ev- on so many levels on my f- on my spiritual journey, on my justice journey, on... And again, even just in a business context of elevating the excellence in the room, that I wanted you to come on this podcast so we can talk about...
I mean, we could talk about a million things. But I wanted you to be here because I really believe, from the very beginning, you were one of the people I wanted on an episode because you truly are a badass softie. So thank you for being here.
Melissa Greene: I'm honored. I'm already tearing up. This has been an emotional couple of weeks, and I'm honored to be here, and thank you.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: It has been an emotional couple of weeks, I can imagine. So when, I originally, we had originally talked about having you on the podcast- Mm-hmm ... and that was pre the emotional couple weeks. Yep. And so to give a little context for people of what the past couple weeks have been like for you, let's just start with the little journey that you have been on for, I don't know, 30 years?
[00:06:27] Reclaiming "Testify To Love"
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah, yeah. 20 years. You're not that old. No, no. So, but l- I'll- I'll give the context, is couple weeks ago, you re-released, you were, uh, you sang, on, Testify to Love, and were part of re-releasing the song Testify to Love with two queer artists And you did it after you were in Avalon and sang that song and toured with that song and was a number one Christian music song 20 years ago.
Melissa Greene: Yep.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And you just re-released it, and it has caught fire, and it had became number one again on the charts in the Christian world. So, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. What has this couple weeks been like for you? Let's... I mean, there's so many things to unpack, but talk about these last couple weeks of what that's been like.
Melissa Greene: it's been overwhelming- Yeah ... honestly, in the best of ways. we had no idea the fire that would catch. Mm-hmm. And that's been the most beautiful thing, is we... These are... Y- you named two career artists. It's Michael Passons- Yes ... and Ty Herndon, who are actually my dear friends and have been, Michael since 2002, and Ty for about probably 15 years.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And Michael was also in-
Melissa Greene: Michael was one of the original members of Avalon. and I joined the group later and was with him for a year before he was kicked out of the group for being gay. Um, so that's part of our own history. So when we were choosing to re-record this, about a year ago June, um, we were singing at Ty's event called Concert for Love and Acceptance, which happens during CMA Fest here in Nashville, and he just asked us to sing.
I'd sang with him a handful of times, and he also asked Michael to sing, and Michael's like, "I'd like to sing Testify. I'd like to reclaim it. Will you sing it with me?" And I'm always like a yes to Michael. So I spoke that night, I sang, and then he sang, and we did Testify, and we knew it was just such a beautiful moment for that crowd and, and some things shared online, and we knew that it was meaningful for a few people also.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And I was there. I was there when you did that, and I was in the crowd weeping. I re- reached over and just, like, grabbed Jamie's leg- Mm ... and I was like, "Oh my gosh, you have no idea. You have no idea." 'Cause I sang that song in college. I sang... I was in a, a group. I paid my way through Christian college by singing in a singing group, and I would say 50% of the songs that we sang were Avalon songs.
Of course.
Melissa Greene: Yes, yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And so I sang that as a closeted queer Christian. I was on stages singing that, and then for you guys to get up and sing that song there, I was a wreck. I was an absolute wreck.
Melissa Greene: Well, and we knew... Like, obviously we know how meaningful it is because we know how meaningful it is to us- Yes
for us to reclaim it and for us to sing it a year ago and stand on that stage, me fully as now an ally, and Michael fully as comfortable in his own skin and singing as an, an out and proud gay man. so we knew it was impactful, and we were grateful for the impact that it made. I wrote a little bit about it.
but over the years, Ty's like, "I actually want us to record it. I'd like to re-release this song in general on my album, but I'd like to do it as a duet with Michael, and Melissa, will you sing?" And I'm like, "Always a yes." Like, all of it made sense. So we recorded in February. We brought in some LGBTQ, choir to do it with us, and it's just, the arrangement's incredible.
Like, I felt so happy about it, so proud. Um, but when we, we, had no, there was no plan. Like, there was no, like, at least that I'm aware of, um, there was no, like, "This is gonna go places." Yeah. "We're gonna be number one on charts. We're gonna da-da-da." I mean, there, it was, "We wanna do this. This is meaningful to us.
This was meaningful for Michael," and so we did it for those reasons. And it, like, I was so grateful just for Michael to have something to h- that he could say was his again. But then we released it, and I wrote, a Substack post just sharing my part of the story and how proud I was to even sing background vocals behind these two men, my friends, and to do it as an ally.
Anyways, everything took off in ways that, uh, were beyond our imagination and beyond any plan that we had. And so yes, now it, it went to number one on the Christian and gospel music charts, which I was laughing. I just was
Dr. J.J. Peterson: laughing.
Melissa Greene: Um, it's the most lovely, beautiful thing, but the responses and 90% of the responses have been good, like overwhelmingly good, 10% as would make sense.
And I actually thought, if anything, there would be more negative than there was, than there has been. But the, the way that, people are taking this moment and reclaiming it for themselves and people that have left the church, people that were forced out of the church, people that are still on the fringes of the church but don't feel like they quite fit in still, I mean, they're finding their place again, and it's just been the most beautiful thing.
[00:11:19] Handling Criticism And Public Backlash
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Let me ask you this. How are you handling even the negative?
Melissa Greene: my skin is pretty thick. Um, it has been for most of my life, but I also, and I don't know how much we'll get into, I sort of went on a similar journey back in 2015 when I was helping to pastor a church here in Nashville, and we were, post-evangelical, and we chose to go fully inclusive as a congregation.
And it made national news in, in ways, again, that we didn't realize. We were doing what was right for us and our community, but it ended up catching fire much like this. And so that experience, that was a much harder experience for me. It was my first time in that, um, sort of war, if you will, and being on the front of it, um, and having to handle all the negative.
And so I just think that, though, prepared me for this. But again, the feedback now, every once in a while, s- I'm, I have a very strong fighter personality. An eight on the Enneagram. So I'm very like, "You wanna fight? I'm ready. What do you, I'm here." So I, I did come back onto some of the concert, comments for sure on the post and, um, offer my responses.
Um, but some of it I just let go because again, the overwhelming response has been positive. Yeah. And I'm also, most of the negative now are people with a limited theology that believe certain things about scripture or God or Jesus that I no longer believe. And so I'm like, I don't even need to get in that argument.
Yeah. That doesn't apply to me- Yeah ... or my friends or the why we do what we're doing now.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I've been watching, kind of watching how, and I, I always appreciate how you respond, 'cause you always respond with truth and also space. I wouldn't even say like, I mean, I guess it is love. Like you're not going, "Oh, I love you- Sure.
and whatever you have to say is fine." Not in that way. Right, right, right. But you say, "No, here's the truth," and then you also say, "Thank you for posting," or- Yeah ... "Thank you for engaging. If you wanna have a fruitful conversation about this, I, we can do that every single day." Sure. "And we can even debate. We can do all that."
[00:13:21] Looking Back Without Shame
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. If it turns into an attack, we're done. Yeah, exactly. And I've always appreciated the way that you've approached that as well. The reason I, I start there, but I think so many people who are listening go through, maybe are going through these phases in life where they look back on who they were, and they go, "I, am not that person anymore."
I'll, I'll even speak for some people I've specifically spoken to and myself, is sometimes there's shame- Mm ... that's wrapped up in the things that I said, the things that I did- Sure ... what I stood for. And then there's also pieces where it's like I'm gonna stand firm. I can't change, because if I say that I've changed now, then it negated everything that I was before.
I, I don't find a lot of people, including myself often, who navigates that all the time at least, you know? Sure. But there's, 'cause there's, there's the two kinda dichotomies of I either look back and go, "I'm ashamed. I'm putting all of that away. None of that I'm not gonna talk about anymore," or I stand firm in my belief I cannot change 'cause it negates who I was back then.
And so go back to, for a little bit, what life was like for you when you were in that space.
Melissa Greene: Well, first of all- If you're
Dr. J.J. Peterson: okay with that. No,
Melissa Greene: I'm, definitely.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I mean, there's, for everybody listening, watching, this is not being sprung on Melissa. We've had conversations- No, no, no ... like these before, so this is- You know me very
[00:14:39] Why Growth Requires Change
Melissa Greene: well
yes, so. I feel seen and known. No. I mean, for one, I just wanna start with I think if you're growing, you're changing. growth is change. I think it is inherent in our lives. Now, whether or not we were taught it was going to be inherent or we were taught that it's okay to continue changing, that's the difference between many of us.
So for those of us, like myself, that have grown up in conservative Christian religious spaces, we were taught, like, of course you're gonna grow and change, like from a child to a young adult to a teenager to a, getting into col- Like, you're gonna grow, but at some point you just stop. Like, at some point You're gonna learn all there is to know, and all you need to do is learn what we're teaching you and then regurgitate that.
you're supposed to stay fixed. So that's what I thought. Like, I thought, "Okay, obviously I'm growing and changing. My body's changing. My mind is changing and opening," but also simultaneously to that happening, the church was telling me, "But these are the truths. You're gonna learn them." Literally, like I, in kindergarten I learned some truths that I believed up until I was about 20, 24 years old, like the same thing.
There was no questioning it. There was no need to question it. You weren't supposed to question it. And yet my life experiences started butting up against those things. So that's when, for me, early on, and I can remember, and I, I talk about this some in my writing, I remember early even in high school, like sitting in the pew and, um, at the church, and hearing a pastor say something about, you, you would be unequally yoked if you married or dated someone of a different color.
And I remember being like, wait, what?" And, and me looking around at my predominantly large, white megachurch and saying, "Nobody's like, nobody... This... Wait, no?" Like, and I, in my heart I was like, "No, I'm attracted to this guy at school who is not white," "And what's wrong with that?" So just early on my life experiences started to butt up against things that I was taught that was telling me, "No, there is no room for growth.
There is no room for change on this thought or who you ultimately then are," because we were taught our theology, and our theology spoke also to then who we are as people, and you weren't supposed to move beyond it.
[00:16:50] How Travel And Reading Changed Everything
Melissa Greene: But my life experiences taught me to do otherwise. So I go to college. I start traveling the world and, ugh, I've said this a million times, like travel and reading have been my greatest teachers, my greatest teachers.
And so I'm trying to teach my kids now, who are almost 17 and 20, like, "Keep reading, keep traveling. It will change you and grow you in the best of ways." So traveling and reading started to do that for me, and eventually I'm ending up in this group Avalon. I was probably 22, I think. Let's see, do the math.
It was 2002. Um, I'll be 47 this year. Um, so yeah, right around there. And so 22, 23, I'm stepping into this group. We were the darlings of Christian music, if you will. and I stepped into it when they were already successful, so I, I really love to say all that early success had nothing to do with me. Um, literally, um, three months into it, being a part of the group, we were on stage at the American Music Awards accepting Inspirational Artist of the Year, and I got to be up there like, "Yes, that's me too," even though it's not.
But I'm a part of this now. So anyway, so I'm here, and I'm traveling in this group, and I,
[00:17:57] The People Who Changed Melissa's Mind
Melissa Greene: the more we traveled, the more I was living life specifically alongside, um, gay men who became dear friends to me along the way in college and after college. And just again, ideas that I was taught, that these are the right ideas.
This is truth. you're supposed to believe this, and this mold should fit on every single person also, and when it didn't fit, we had to say, "Well, then the person's wrong." And that was the case with Michael. It was like, "No, this person's wrong," then, not this idea is wrong or this theology is wrong Um, but that person must be wrong.
And so I have been on the wrong side of that too many times than I want to count. But I also know I remained open and continued to love people in the midst of it, and by loving and still showing up versus rushing away from people or saying, like for Michael, for example, like, "Well, I don't want you a part of my life," I had to lean in close to sort of watch how his life played out, and, did that over and over with different people, and learned like, oh, I think it's not the people that are wrong.
I think it's maybe my theology that is wrong, and it's okay for me to say, "I think I can believe differently." So that's how change started for me in dramatic ways. and then I just continued. It's like I learned to hold... And again, for me, so much of my change has been wrapped around my theology that I was taught.
Um, and I think anybody that, again, grew up in strict religious spaces will understand that. And if you don't understand that, it's like your religion is your whole world. You know? It is the container in which you view everything. So once that container started opening, I just started seeing so much more beauty and more life and diversity and realizing, like, there's so much to learn, and why would I ever wanna stop learning?
[00:19:39] Why Changing Your Mind Feels So Hard
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Y- there's something you're... there's so many things that you just mentioned that I'd love to dive into, but one of the things I'm, thinking about that you said is this idea that when it comes to specifically, say, like faith and doctrine, it's not just a belief. It's an identity. Mm-hmm. It is your...
And it's not just even identity. It's your whole world. Yes. It is your community connections. It is your ticket forward, even in jobs.
Melissa Greene: Sure.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: It is opportunities to, you know, if you're going on mission trips, travel the world. right. Yep. Like it is status. Yeah. And it is relationship, and it is everything.
So when you're, when people look at other people who have a different belief, and they just go, "Well, if they just change their mind-" It takes a bit more than that because it's not just they're changing their mind, they're changing their world
Melissa Greene: They're changing everything
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And so to do that requires a bravery- that sometimes people aren't often ready for. Sure. I know in my own life, and probably even in yours, there were moments I was not ready to be that brave.
Melissa Greene: 100%, yes.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And I didn't even know I needed to be. Right. I, didn't even know it was an option. And you know, when, when you're in that space, and, this is kind of even as I'm thinking about myself, when I look back on that, I, actually have a lot of grace for the person that I was- even though there are things that I did and said and believed that now I would go... It'd make me cringe. And yet I have a lot of grace for that person- Mm ... because it wasn't just, like, a silly belief. It was my whole world. It was indoctrination. It was all of the things. And to move out of that takes exposure and life experience.
Mm-hmm. And that really, that is so key is that, understanding that in those moments when your life experiences butt up against a belief that you've always held, "This person is bad," and then I see this person, I go, "Oh, that person isn't as bad as I thought."
Melissa Greene: Right,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And it can be a group of people or it can literally be Shannon who works with you in the office.
You know? right, right, sudden you go, "Oh, wait, I got to know this person and she's sweet." Right. you know, sorry, Shannon. Um, even though I don't know any Shannons. But, uh, you know, it- when you come into that experience, you do have two choices. You can lean further into your belief and get more grounded, or you can be open to the possibility that potentially your belief might not be- fully correct.
Melissa Greene: Right.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: So that's one piece of it. And then, but, I... Now you're, you're, in a much different space. So if anybody was getting triggered and being like, "Am I listening to some..." No. But, you know, you're in a much different space now, and yet I've also watched the way that you've walked in a new space of not...
I, have heard you critique beliefs and critique, structures that are, about- imposing power and control over people. But I've actually never heard you, go, "Christianity is dumb," or- Mm. Sure ... like, you've never gone at the beliefs themselves. You've gone after power structures- Yeah ... and some theologies that are damaging.
What has allowed you to do that? that, uh, you know, ins- instead of, like, I know you get angry at injustice.
Melissa Greene: Sure,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: yeah. But it doesn't feel like, to me, that I've ever seen you get angry at a whole group, a whole, belief system or anything like that. And here's the other thing, you've never made people feel dumb.
everything, like, the other part is, like, when people attack you, which I've seen it, you've never made them feel dumb. You've You've always engaged and pressed in versus putting them down.
Melissa Greene: Because I was them, though, and because I was them, I have that grace. And like you just said, like, we were, I was doing the best I could with the information I had.
And so now that I've moved, expanded outside of that, I don't look back and offer shame to others. I do offer critique, but I don't think it's to the whole. Like, I can stand here today, and even though I'm peacefully on the outside of Christianity today, and have been for the past almost 10 years, I can still look in and respect a lot that is going on within that religion.
Like, I see people doing well with it. I see people using their truth inside of that to love others well, and to love the world, and to love themselves well. And so if they're doing that, beauti- like, there's no critique for that to me. It's not that the whole thing is wrong. It is that a lot within it, and within many structures in our world, people get caught up, you know, in the hierarchical view of it.
You spoke about power and l- power lording over others and trying to control others, and those are my strong critiques. And so that happens within Christianity. It happens within other religions. It happens in America right now. It happens in our political system. Like, so you can see the systems and structures that are represented and, and often mimicked, in all these spaces.
Um, and I see that the structure is wrong. Um, and so I've asked my critique of my own experience of Christianity, and my own experience of church, and my own experience of leading in a church. So I was a leader in ministry in Avalon. I toured for, um, o- um, almost 10 years, I guess, touring the world, singing, and then when I stepped out of that, I stepped into a church and was ordained, and church that you became a part of later, and pastored there, effectively co-pastored towards the end, but for almost eight years.
And so I've been there, one. And me leaving all of that though, my critique wasn't to just like, "Oh, it's all bad. It's all wrong." It's like, no, I mean, I came out of it. You came out of it. Like, I know people, again, out of it and still in it that are still good, and doing good work. But I just speak to the structure.
The structure so often is the problem. And so it's even harder for me, even when I wanted to at times point to a person that I was being hurt by, I had to s- even tell myself then that person is set up by a structure and set up by people supporting that structure. So even that person at the top who is s- technically has the power and seems to be the one, imposing harm on others, I still was like, but there's a whole system supporting it.
So it's not just about that one person or any one person. So I don't know. I think the grace is just there because I have changed so much and come so far, I just realize, like me too, like I've been there too. And so just because my travel or, or my experiences allowed me or offered me an opportunity to shift beliefs and, and shift the way that I feel and shift the way that I would then work and what I wanna do with my life, I don't impose that everybody needs to be on the exact path that I've done.
So I think that's where my, uh, that grace comes in for me. It's accountability. It's realizing, again, I've shifted and changed, but I'm sure there's a million other ways that I still need to shift and change. And so that just keeps me a little bit more, again, open-minded and open-hearted towards all of it.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah, and I think that's so, for people who are in those places, recognizing that. And then another thing too that you kind of mentioned that I think is so important for me, that has helped me in situations like this, is that holding the loosely your beliefs. Because, the way that I describe it is that it's like holding Jell-O.
Like, it's actual real. I hold. I can hold it. But if you and I start to get into a big argument about it and I start to squeeze- ... and hold onto my belief-
Melissa Greene: Sure ...
Dr. J.J. Peterson: it's gonna start squeezing through for me, obvious to everybody else, because the 100- I am 100% right all the time just isn't gonna- Right ... doesn't work.
Right. Especially when you c- experience. Yeah. So I, I talk a- about a lot of my beliefs, whether it's faith, spiritual, political, anything, as like they're solid. Mm-hmm. It's... I'm not wishy-washy about my beliefs. I can hold them. But if I try to defend at all costs- and squeeze, that Jell-O's gonna start seeping out.
Yeah. And then I have to figure out how to put it back together or figure out a new Jell-O to hold- Right ... or whatever. You know, we could go down that road.
[00:27:47] Why You Shouldn't Stay The Same Person
Dr. J.J. Peterson: but that's like how I think, for me, some of the things that you're talking about are the things that have allowed me to continue to grow. You shouldn't be.
I don't think you should be the same person you were 20 years ago. No. And if you are, then there might be something that's holding you back.
You know, again, not to put a black and white on it, but it's like that's... I think that, the expectation is, well, what I believed when I was 20, if it was true then, it's true now And I don't know that that is a true statement.
Right.
Melissa Greene: No, uh, agreed. Oh, so many thoughts are going through my head. us, we're afraid, though, of change. Like, there's a fear, right? And again, the church, at, least the church I grew up in, they taught me how to fear. Like, fear was embedded in our views from day one, you know? And so from a broader space, though, outside of religion, I just, I see a lot of fear in people, fear of, thinking, again, they might be wrong, 'cause again, then there's a shame of, "Have I been wrong my whole life?
How dare I?" Or fear of the unknown. I mean, there's a huge... Again, this is at least the church bubble, and I would be interested if it was true outside of that, but this very idea that the things that we don't actually know, then we should fear versus the things we don't know, we just don't know. Mm-hmm. Like, it's okay to be like, "I don't actually understand that person or how they grew up or what their context is or what their belief system is or what their culture is."
So not knowing something should not equate to being afraid of something. I think curiosity is so needed right now in our world more than ever, and it's the bedrock of honestly why I've changed so much, is because I've remained curious. Again, and I don't then take on every belief that someone brings to me or I butt up against with my life experiences.
I don't take them all on as full, but I'm happy to be like, "Okay, tell me more. Like, let me learn more about you or why you believe that or what this culture's like," versus making assumptions right away. And so anyways, I think fear's at the base of a lot of that, um, and I'd like us to get away from that.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And I think part of the curiosity you've already mentioned is continue exposing yourself to different cultures- Yes ... environments, travel, reading. Yes,
Melissa Greene: yes,
Dr. J.J. Peterson: yes. You know, and that's part of the curiosity. Like, when we're talking about just the practicality, people are like, "Well, how do I stay curious?" go outside of the world that you currently live.
Yes. Whether that's visiting overseas or somewhere- Right ... a different culture or reading something that you might not normally do. Right. Escaping even into an imagination world- Yes ... that's different than yours-
Melissa Greene: Yes ...
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I think is so important to stay in that space. I'm curious what you would say now, like if you met your 22-year-old self now, what would you say to her?
Melissa Greene: One, I would tell her I'm already so proud of her. Because again, you've done the best you could with the information you've been given, and the love you've been given or not given, you are doing the best you can. So I would say I'm proud, and I would say keep going. Keep going. I can't wait to see what else you'll see, what else you'll learn, what you'll let go of, what you'll grab hold of.
How you'll help people and how people will help you. Just remain open. And I think somehow that Melissa, that 22-year-old Melissa knew that inside. Like, we're, I think we're all born with this capacity, and we often get stifled. we get stuck because again, culture, family, systems, church environment, religious environment, school environment, whatever.
Like, we often get stuck, but if we would all just keep going, I think that's the part and the beauty of life. So yeah, I think that I would just tell her keep going.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I love it. And, I just, you know, I said at the beginning, but you, y- you have impacted my life in so many ways, and what's funny is you did impact my life before I even knew you.
You know, like when we were both in that college era of you were touring and I was following behind you with the same songs. You know? Like, it really has been for all of these years. So I am so grateful for you, for, uh, your friendship in my life, and then just your willingness even to come on here and, like, talk about this and continue.
And you know, my f- favorite thing about this is hopefully, like, 20 years from now we're back here and going, "I said what 20 years ago?" Right, Well, look how
Melissa Greene: I've changed.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah, look back and go- ... "I cannot believe I said that on that podcast." I
Melissa Greene: hope so.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. I mean, honestly. 20 years from now we're both like, "Oh my gosh, honey.
We were so young at 50." "Remember when we were 50 and we were just babies?" Yes, please. Yeah, so I love it, so thank you for being here. And if people want to, you know, I- you do write. I know you're gonna be publishing a book, but right now, how... If people wanted to follow you more and continue learning from your experiences, where can they find you?
Melissa Greene: the most places that I'm active are Instagram, and it's Melissa Greene, just my name, and then on Substack also, Melissa Greene. Um, and I'm sharing a lot of my writing, which I'm starting to get really pr- I'm really proud to be able to say now that I'm a writer. I was so scared to say that over the years, and I'm not published yet, but I know that this is a part of my life and a part...
Again, I would have always thought I'm Melissa the singer. I'm Melissa the pastor. I'm Melissa the speaker, the teacher, and those are all still a part of my life. I'm grateful for them, but now I can also say I'm Melissa the writer. Yeah, you are. And so I hope people will follow on Substack.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. And- And it's good.
It's good. Thank you. So well, thank you for being here. Thank you for being, you know, such an, a influence in my life and for singing at our wedding which was unbelievable. And, in this space especially, thank you for being a badass
Melissa Greene: softie. Aw. I'm grateful. Thank you, JJ.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Melissa, thank you so much for coming on and being vulnerable and sharing and being honest.
[00:33:37] The Courage To Keep Growing
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And, uh, after the cameras turned off, I just said, "We could have had this conversation for another hour." And honestly, we did. We kept talking about it because, you know, I think for all of us, it doesn't matter whether it's faith or whether it's political ideology or just a belief about who you are as a human, your leadership or what your values are, if we are healthy, we are growing.
We are changing, and we shouldn't be the same person we are five years from now, 10 years from now. We should look back and go, "Wow, I can't believe I believed that," in some ways, and to continue growing. And I think, you know, there's so much that I can take away from this conversation, but the thing that I, I think just kind of inspired me once again is to continue being curious about the world.
I think when we lean into curiosity instead of fear, we actually can not only find a more beautiful world and open up our eyes and our heart and our mind to more amazing things, but it allows us to actually step into growth and becoming, and becoming a more full version of ourself and, quite honestly, probably a more full version of your, of the person that the world needs to see as well.
And so I want to continue to be more curious, and that means I want to lean into travel, and I want to lean into reading. And travel for me is not that hard, where I'm about to go on three different trips here pretty quick, but I want in those trips to remind myself to be curious, curious about the people around me, the world around me, the cultures around me.
And on those trips, I'm gonna take some books, and I'm gonna keep reading and growing and staying curious. And whatever you got out of this conversation, I hope that you too give yourself the grace to continue to grow, to continue be, to become the person that you're meant to be. So let me leave you with this.
May you remember that growth is not a sign that you are wrong or were wrong. It's a sign that you are alive. May you have the courage to stay curious and release the need to have everything figured out. May you find the courage to hold your beliefs with conviction and humility. And when fear tells you to stay where it's safe, may you remember that nearly every beautiful thing in your life began with uncertainty.
Because we believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun and driven, powerful and deeply human. Your leadership can inspire, your success can have soul, and your ambition can make space for everyone. That's why you're a badass softie. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
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