The Work of Leadership Is Learning to Hold Tension
Leadership often feels like something we’re supposed to figure out—clarify, simplify, resolve. But what if the discomfort you’re trying to eliminate is actually the work itself? This conversation with Dr. JJ Peterson and Justin Aherns explores why the best leaders don’t avoid tension, but learn how to lead inside it—holding ambition and humanity, clarity and curiosity, without losing themselves in the process.
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There’s a quiet assumption baked into how we think about leadership:
That clarity is the goal.That alignment is the goal.That if you’re a good leader, things should feel… resolved.
But most people who have actually led anything meaningful know that’s not how it works.
Leadership doesn’t feel clean. It feels conflicted.
You’re asked to make decisions with incomplete information.To move forward while still holding doubt.To care deeply about people while also making calls that affect them.
And somewhere along the way, many leaders start to believe that tension is a sign they’re doing something wrong.
It’s not.
Tension Isn’t the Problem, It’s the Signal
We’ve been conditioned to treat tension like something to fix.
If something feels off, we assume:
we need more clarity
a better strategy
a cleaner answer
But tension isn’t always a sign of confusion. Often, it’s a sign of awareness.
It’s what shows up when:
two important things are both true
competing priorities both matter
the “right” answer depends on perspective
This is where leadership tension lives.
And the leaders who grow are not the ones who eliminate it. They’re the ones who stay in it long enough to understand it.
Because tension does something most leaders underestimate:
It slows you down just enough to ask better questions.
The Myth of “More Important Work”
There’s another trap that shows up, especially for thoughtful leaders.
The belief that some work matters more than other work.
You feel it when you compare:
purpose-driven work vs. commercial work
impact vs. revenue
meaning vs. execution
And it can quietly create a kind of internal hierarchy: “If I were doing more important work, I’d feel better about what I’m doing.”
But that belief doesn’t hold up for long.
Because you can do meaningful work and still show up in ways that harm people. And you can do ordinary work and still show up in ways that deeply serve them.
The difference isn’t the category of work.
It’s how you show up inside it.
This is the shift at the heart of human-centered leadership:
not just focusing on outcomes
not just focusing on performance
but recognizing that there is always a human on the other side of your decisions
And your presence—your tone, your awareness, your intention—shapes that experience more than the work itself.
Human-Centered Leadership Isn’t Soft—It’s Demanding
There’s a tendency to mistake “human-centered” for “nice.”
But real human-centered leadership is anything but passive.
It requires you to:
hold empathy without losing direction
make decisions without dehumanizing people
stay curious even when you’re under pressure to be certain
And perhaps most importantly: It requires you to resist the urge to simplify people into categories, roles, or outcomes.
Because people are not data points.
They’re carrying context you may never fully see:
pressure you don’t understand
experiences you don’t share
stakes that feel invisible from the outside
When you lead with that awareness, your decisions don’t necessarily become easier.
But they become more grounded.
Why Leadership Feels Harder Right Now
There’s a reason this conversation feels more relevant than ever.
We’re leading in a world that is:
faster
more digital
increasingly shaped by AI and automation
And while these tools create efficiency, they also create distance.
Distance from:
context
nuance
lived experience
Which makes the role of the leader even more important.
Not to reject technology—but to anchor it.
To ask:
Are we using this to understand people better?
Or are we using it to move faster without understanding them at all?
The future of leadership isn’t less human.
It’s more intentionally human.
And that requires holding another kind of tension: Efficiency and empathy. Scale and connection.
The Real Work of Leadership
At some point, every leader runs into the same realization:
The work is not the work.
The real work is how you show up while doing it.
You can:
build a company
lead a team
launch a product
And still miss the thing that actually matters.
Because leadership isn’t defined by what you produce.
It’s defined by how people experience you in the process.
Do they feel:
seen
respected
considered
Or do they feel like a means to an end?
That’s not a systems problem. That’s a presence problem.
Learning to Lead Inside the Tension
If tension is part of leadership—and it is—then the question becomes:
What do you do with it?
You don’t rush to resolve it. You don’t ignore it. And you don’t let it paralyze you.
You learn to work with it.
To let it:
sharpen your awareness
deepen your curiosity
expand your perspective
Because the goal isn’t to become a leader who has all the answers.
It’s to become a leader who can hold complexity without losing clarity of who they are.
This way of leading won’t always feel efficient. It won’t always feel comfortable.
But it will feel honest.
And in a world that is increasingly optimized for speed, clarity, and output— that kind of leadership stands out.
Not because it’s louder.
But because it’s real.
Resources Mentioned in The Episode:
Book: Be HumanKind: https://www.behumankind.today/
Podcast: Running Aherns (Dr. J.J.’s episode): https://www.runningahrens.today/podcast/when-your-story-changes-how-jj-and-jamie-rebuilt-life-love-and-home
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[00:00:00] Why Leaders Try to Avoid Tension
Justin Ahrens: Let's talk about a word that I don't think we talk enough about as leaders, and that's the word, tension. Too often when we think about leadership or what we're doing in our life, we don't want tension. We don't acknowledge it enough to realize that tension can also be that thing that that wakes you up, that keeps you alert, that encourages you to understand more, to ask more questions.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson, and today I am so excited to introduce to you my friend Justin Ahrens. Justin is such an incredible human being.
He is a designer and a strategist and a story maker, and he really believes that creativity is one of the most powerful ways that we can love the world. And so he helps people be creative, and he is done this for three decades and he helps them kind of show up on purpose with their brand and their message.
He founded Rule29, which is a brand agency that has helped some of the biggest companies in the world. Won all the awards, and he is also the chief Creative Officer for not only Rule29, but O'Neil Printing. And he works to blend design, storytelling and strategy to help brands grow. But really what I love about him more than anything is he is, always takes a human first approach to everything.
And we talk about this in the podcast. So if you've ever been in a space where you feel like, how do I try to get things done while also making sure that I keep my humanity and the p humanity of others around me at the center of things. This conversation is for you because it's not always easy, and Justin and I talk about that in the interview.
So I am so excited for you to get to know my friend. Justin Ahrens on today's episode of Badass Softie. Here we go.
[00:02:08] The Power of Story in Human-Centered Leadership
Dr. JJ Peterson: Justin, I am so excited that you're on the podcast today and before we get really into it, I like to tell people why they're on the podcast.
Justin Ahrens: You wanna tell me or tell people listening?
Dr. JJ Peterson: Wanna tell you.
Justin Ahrens: Okay? Okay.
Dr. JJ Peterson: So you and I met, I talked about it a little bit in the intro, many years ago when we were working with a nonprofit that does community development in Africa. And instantly, not only were you a real good time, and we laughed all the time, but you were a total badass at what you did.
You helped redesign the entire branding for this company. We ended up doing a book. We ended up doing a video. You took ideas and always went, okay, but what if we did this? So I just knew that I needed to have you on Badass Softie because you truly are just a badass softie. So thank you for being here today.
Justin Ahrens: Thank you. You mean my a hundred texts of why I am not on the show yet? That wasn't the reason.
Dr. JJ Peterson: No.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Everybody else that does that, I just ignore 'em. But you, I was like, well, gotta make it happen sometime.
So you ran, well run, a company called Rule29, and I started working for this nonprofit called Life in Abundance.
And I literally remember when I went to work my first day, we opened up a drawer and a desk and found handwritten ledgers of donations for the past, like five years. There was nothing computerized. There was no real graphics, there was no, there was a logo, I believe, but like I couldn't tell what it did.
It was an amazing organization that was doing powerful things. Incredible work in the world, really. In seven different countries in Africa. I mean, it was just kind of unbelievable and yet nobody knew who they were and you came in. And built a brand, really built the brand from the ground up with a message that took them global in a whole new way.
And I would love to hear, 'cause obviously when I met you, you'd been doing this for a long time, but what was it that drew you into the marketing branding world, and why did you want to do things?
I'll just start it with this. Why did you wanna do things differently than you had seen other people doing them?
Justin Ahrens: Yeah. I think ever since I was a kid, I was fascinated by story. I think you and I have talked about it before. When I was a kid, I was kind of nerd. I read everything. Not that Tolkien is nerdy, but you know, it could be. Think whatever, you know, the genre you wanna talk about from Star Wars to whatever.
There was this power of story, and I didn't understand; I couldn't have articulated that back then, but that was always really attractive.
And as I discovered design, but even more particularly brand strategy, I believe just we are born in our DNA to a couple things.
One, we are constantly thinking about what story we're in, what story we want to be in, right?
And then I get to be in a world where I can help frame that story. And again, it could be framed poorly, right? And maybe for nefarious ways. But what's beautiful is you get to understand the human condition and how we all want to see ourselves in a story that is positive. I'm the hero, I win. Or I'm taking care of or whatever.
And when you get to do work like life in abundance, where you can actually tell a story of deep human need and how you can be involved in it, and you get to connect with something that's ultimately what life is about, which is, taking care of your neighbor, loving those around you, man, that's just the best.
[00:06:32] What It Means to Lead with the Human in Mind
Dr. JJ Peterson: The way you approach design is really kind of a human-centered way of looking at it. Talk a little bit about that. When you say that you do human-centered design, what do you mean by that?
Justin Ahrens: Yeah, well it actually goes back to my first trip to Africa. I think it was with you.
We were in the middle of Berra in Kenya.
Berra is one of, I think, still one of the largest slums in the world. And I'm sitting there and I'm looking around and I'm in this just incredibly awful place. And here I am, middle-aged white dude from the suburbs. What in the world can I do to make an impact in that scenario? It's so far from my context, it just doesn't make sense to me.
And that befuddled me. I didn't know what to do. I thought, like, man, I don't think I know how to tell the story. And then I remember I just sat down and I thought about the simplest thing, which is, how can I help someone see what's happening from the people we're trying to service perspective?
Although we've always tried to do that in what we do, I didn't feel it inside until that moment. And actually, I came home and we changed everything we did.
So like literally when we were doing golf club catalogs, I try to think differently about, Hey, what does it feel like when you walk up to a golf ball and you hit things perfectly?
That's not as beautiful and human as, you know, doing the nonprofit work did, but still, it was reshaping how we looked at things.
And I think for a long time, if I was to be honest, I was doing work that I was really excited about and I wanted to do, and not so much targeted to the story that we were trying to tell to the people we were trying to impact.
And so that's really what it started is before we start anything. What is it that the people we're serving, whatever that service is, what are we trying to get them to feel? And then we go from there.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah, and you're bringing back, I haven't talked about this in a long time, but Justin, you're bringing this back of this idea of how do you tell a story in a way that centers the human versus the tragedy or the difficulty?
And how do you be honest and honor that? You're right. The work that then we, you and I, have both continued to do is say, how do you approach any, it's weird. I don't, wanna make a harsh transition here, but you, you know, this idea that, how do you then communicate to people, whether it's in leadership or in marketing in a way that honors their story and where they're at first versus like, start with the product or the, what you're trying to accomplish or getting, Honor and praise for the website that you built, or the commercial that you made, or the movie project, or the social media post. But how do you actually start every form of communication with the person in mind, the human in mind that you are communicating with, and how do you invite them into a story as well as communicate their story in a way that honors that humanity?
And that's a very tricky thing to do often. and like you said, it's hard to do when you're in slums that have just been kind of decimated by riots. And then it's also hard to do when you're selling golf balls. And that's a weird thing to say, like, but I think a lot of us find ourselves in those kind of situations often.
Justin Ahrens: The reason I made that comparison 'cause literally I was on the plane and I was writing down the work they were doing and we had to, at the time, we had a huge golf club company.
So I'm just like, how do I put these two together? How can I justify this work and that work? Right?
And what's crazy is both of the work was important, and so from my standpoint, the responsibility, as crazy as it sounds, was the same.
Either I don't do certain types of work, or I create a process or framework to approach this challenge, with that context every time.
[00:10:50] When Work Stops Feeling Meaningful
Dr. JJ Peterson: That's so important. I also remember this was kind of in my own journey, so I did, you know, I did improv comedy for a little bit, and I remember one time same thing.
I went on a trip to..
Justin Ahrens: You're not setting me up for a bit right now, right?Dr. JJ Peterson: No, no.
Justin Ahrens: Okay.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Give me a place where people work and make it snappy.
I remember I was touring, doing improv, and I had a break, and I went to visit some friends who were doing some international aid work and I came back from that trip and then I'm on stage where people are paying a lot of money to watch me perform and I felt so gross up on that stage.
And people were coming up afterwards and getting my autograph and asking me for pictures. And I had just literally come from a place where people were dying 'cause I didn't have $12, to pay for a medical bill.
And I was just like, I don't know how to do this. I actually walked away from the table where we were signing autographs and I remember going into a corner. And trying to hide and this family came over and said, Hey, we just wanna thank you because, tonight's the first night we've been out since our son died in a car accident and we were able to laugh for the first time.
Justin Ahrens: That was a little gift, J.J
Dr. JJ Peterson: I remember being incredibly humbled in the moment because I was like, I was complaining a little bit about the work that I had been given because I was like, well, this isn't important, and I was a little bit high horsey about it, and I began to realize in that moment that every time that I show up, no matter what capacity, whether it's on stage or whether it's, again, creating websites or emails that I have to grasp, especially like grapple with, especially like right now in the world where there's a lot of hard things happening in the world.
Justin Ahrens: Crazy shit.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Crazy stuff is happening and we have to continue in our work in the things that we do. And how do you show up being fully human in those spaces and also honoring the human on the other side of those spaces in a way that is not one is necessarily more important.
Is world peace more important than selling a product? Absolutely.
And yet we also have to work at both a lot of the times and I think. That is part of what being human is, like showing up in those spaces, honoring both things. There are really hard things and those are important to be in and there's really things that don't feel as hard, but like then you go, well, maybe I should only be doing the hard things.
And it's like, well no, both matter and you actually have to full show up as your full human in order to do the work and survive in this world. Really.
[00:13:42] You’re Solving the Wrong Leadership Problem
Justin Ahrens: I agree. Let's talk about a word that I don't think we talk enough about as leaders. And that's the word, tension. We live in tension if we're healthy, again, this is my opinion. I think as a healthy adult and in my space, a healthy brand strategist, brand developer, you live in tension, for example.
Personally, I don't like labeling things. I don't like giving things names. I like approaching them, openly with curiosity, and trying to experience something authentically. That's not how the majority of the world works, as you know. It's very dualistic, it's very extroverted, all kinds of other things.
And so we live in this constant tension and I think we don't acknowledge it enough to realize that tension often is considered a, negative word, and it definitely can be, but tension can also be that thing that wakes you up. That keeps you alert, that encourages you to understand more, to ask more questions.
And I, it hasn't been, I don't know, maybe the last few years, in fact, it is terrible to say this, but maybe this is one of the silver linings I gained from COVID iIs this I learned more about tension. I explored it more 'cause I had some challenges, as most of us did.
And I thought this exists and this exists. And that's okay. And I need to figure out how to navigate those and how to understand them. And I think for me it's encouraged me to again, learn more, be open more, ask more questions. And I think too often when we think about leadership or, what we're doing in our life, we don't want tension. And I think that's the wrong approach.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah. Because learning how to step into that in a way that you can keep going and keep serving and growing and all those things, I think is so important.
And, you know, that's kind of why I wanted to have you here because you walk in those tensions and walk in that all the time and try to figure out, how do we continue to be human,continue to honor other people's stories, continue to center other people's stories in the work that we're doing, while also building a business and selling things and all of that together.
And you have a book coming out really soon, that actually is available for pre-order now that is called Being Humankind.
And what you talk about in it is really choosing courage, compassion and clarity in a sometimes crazy and distracted world.
So talk to me a little bit about what inspired this book and what is in this book for people who wanna read it.
Justin Ahrens: I love it. Thank you for that intro. I can't wait for a time in our life where we don't mention the lockdown, but going back to that space, I just started writing and journaling of like what was going on, right? And how I was feeling. And, at the time right before it happened, Rule29 was having its best year ever. And then, it was a fight to get through it. And I started just thinking about how I showed up every day and I started writing down what I called states of being.
I thought, what is it like to being a human? And then, you know, I started thinking about this concept of humankind, like all of us. And so it's all play on words, right? It's being human, being kind, being humankind. We have the ability to show up every day. How we choose to. Some days are gonna be really easy, some days are gonna be unbelievably hard, and all of our stories on context are different.
And I think at that time too, I think I was also reading a lot of Brené Brown, assume that people are doing the best they can and all of these things started influencing it. And so throughout the years, I was just writing things down and then about three years ago I was like, man, I think I should do another book.
I did a book called Life Kerning, I dunno, 12, 13 years ago. And it's funny, I would help authors build their brand and then help them go and evolve that. And when my first book came out, I sort of freaked out. I was like, wow, there's a lot of personal stuff in there. I didn't think about people actually reading it, which is crazy.
And so, not that I didn't give it my full effort, but I didn't really promote it because I felt insecure. I had imposter syndrome about it. I felt, man, I give a lot of my personal voice in there.
And so I'm now at the stage in life where I'm just like, I think I have some really interesting things to say.
I've split the book into five practices of being, the central ways we show up that ground, everything else, right? So just starting at the foundation of who we are.
Then I think it comes to leading yourself. These are the qualities that help you direct your life with purpose and clarity. And from there you talk about growing, like the mindset, the shifts and the strengths that help you adapt and thrive, right?
This comes to new technology, the way the world is. And then being with others, it feels like we, in some ways, need to relearn how to connect and build trust and make relationships that last. It feels at times with social media and the world, you know, it's harder and harder for us to connect.
And then finally, it's about creating your legacy that the actions and attitudes that leave something meaningful, not only behind, but in your current presence. And so I think together, these are things that we can come back to again and again. To what makes us more human, and I'm just excited to get this out into the world.
Dr. JJ Peterson: I am so excited for people to read this book and because I love that not only does it give these high principles, but some really practical things that you can do to be human and kind and kind of live as a human yourself. So as we start to wrap up here.
[00:20:07] Can AI Make Leadership More Human?
Dr. JJ Peterson: I wanna just ask you about this new world that we're living in, this digital world where more of our lives are online, more marketing is created by AI.
All this stuff in the design space, and you are leaning into the human side even more now. What gets you excited about the new kind of era that we're living in with AI and more digital and all of that? Because I know if we're staying in it, we gotta stay in it for a reason, and we're staying in 'cause I'm excited about it.
But I'm curious from you, what are you excited about in this new age of more digital and more AI when you're focusing on being human?
Justin Ahrens: Yeah, that's great. There's two things that are kind of happening. At the same time in my life, one, I'm completely leaning into AI, vibe coding, creating apps, experiences, and really understanding it.
Because there's, in my opinion, there's no choice. This is not going away. The genie’s outta the bottle, right? And in doing that, again, I really wanna look at how can I keep this human-centered? How can I do this authentically? How can I do this appropriately?
At the same time, a mutual friend of ours, Brian McDonald and I have started this gathering called At The Table, where we bring four people together that don't know each other, and for two hours we guide them through a conversation that really is just about whatever shows up in the room.
And what's really interesting is these two things together seem completely not related. They actually very much are because, like any other tool that happens today, I love AI. I know the downsides of it. I'm not putting my head in the sand, but it actually has allowed me to do deeper research to go through information at a higher level and create opportunities for me to actually have my work be more human-centered.
I mean, we even do audits now with AI, where before people just filled out a Google form. And there's this conversational experience happening where we're getting much cleaner, much clearer, much more authentic human info. And so these are all things that are a part of our world. And, I think like anything, you have the right purpose, the right perspective, and you can really point it in a way that makes some of them work.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Justin, if people are interested in pre-ordering, being humankind, where should they go to find that?Justin Ahrens: Yeah, so you can go to behumankind.today and also would love to promote my two podcasts Running Aherns, which JJ is on and actually Design Of which JJ is also on.
Dr. JJ Peterson: That's right. I’ve been on both of your podcasts. Love that. Justin, thank you, thank you for being here, and for all you do in the world and for being my friend and for continuing to push me to be a better human and also to be better in my work, 'cause you're doing both.
Justin Ahrens: Thanks buddy. Thanks for the work you're doing and you are the ultimate badass softie.
Dr. JJ Peterson: Love you. Love you.
I love that conversation. Justin and I could have kept going probably forever. Really. We have so many stories, you know, and there were so many things that jumped out at me in that, the whole idea of, AI helping you be more human, not less human.
The different pieces of Justin's book that started with just like grounding yourself in who you are and growth, and I mean so many amazing things.
[00:23:55] The Real Work of Leadership
Dr. JJ Peterson: But the thing I think I'm gonna take away from today's conversation is really the whole idea about this tension. The idea of tension in life. You know, there really are a lot of times in my life that I feel like I've done quote unquote, more important work than other times, right? Like say when I'm doing nonprofit work, and I'm doing things that are really making a difference in people's lives, that's the important work. Whereas, you know, when I am trying to sell a product for somebody that's less important in the world.
And I know that there's gravity to both of those things, but the reality is the important work is how you show up in those spaces, right? Because I can show up doing nonprofit work and I can be an asshole, right? And I can actually leave a lot of damage behind me.
In fact, I've worked for a lot of nonprofits where, some of the ways that the leaders showed up was not healthy for the people they were serving, nor was it healthy for the people that they were serving with.
So it's not just about the work, but it's how you show up in the work. You know, I've also worked for these unbelievable companies that are selling just what you would call like normal, everyday products, and yet the way that they show up in the world actually makes a huge difference. And so there's this tension a lot of times that I feel of where, oh, I need to be doing more important work or I need to do this kind of work.
But the truth is, the work is how you show up. You can be doing anything and you can show up as an asshole, or you can show up as a kind person who helps people win. That, I think was a good reminder for me today. You know, and in all of those things, being incredibly intentional about all of it and really keeping humanity and humans at the center of all that work because no matter how you're showing up or how you're communicating, there's always a human on the other side of that.
And when you can put yourself in their shoes with empathy and understanding and learn from them out of curiosity and not out of coming at them with, you know, a bunch of knowledg, or transactional things, but actually showing up with real curiosity and learning from them. That is what actually is, I think, the work that we need to be leaning into a little bit more.
And that was just an incredible reminder from this conversation with Justin today.
So to close us out in this time, let me leave you with this.
May you remember that being kind and human is not a detour from ambition, but the way through it and the way to show up. May you learn to live in the tension between conviction and curiosity, between the different types of work that you have to carry, and between the weight of getting things done while remaining human.
May you design your work with people in mind, not as segments or data points, but as people carrying stories, hopes, and weight you may never fully see. And may you be reminded that the best stories are the ones that honor humanity, not take advantage of it.
We believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun and driven, powerful and deeply human. Your leadership can inspire your success, can have soul, and your ambition can make space for everyone. That's why you are a badass softie. We'll see you next week.
Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Badass offie.com is crafted by fruitful design and strategy.