Stop Marketing Like Everyone Is a Stranger
Most businesses market as though every customer relationship starts at zero.
Every post is trying to reach someone new. Every ad is introducing the business from scratch. Every campaign is built around finding strangers who have never heard your name before.
We've become so accustomed to that way of thinking that it rarely feels unusual. It simply feels like marketing.
But what if that's the wrong starting point?
Marketing strategist Raj Lulla believes it is. After more than two decades helping businesses and nonprofits grow, he came to a simple realization: the strongest businesses aren't built by constantly chasing new people. They're built by investing in the relationships that already exist.
Prefer to listen? Press play below.
We Started Chasing Attention Instead of People
Every week seems to bring another platform to master, another algorithm to understand, or another tactic promising more reach.
There's nothing inherently wrong with learning new marketing tools. Businesses should adapt as technology changes.
The problem begins when the tools become the strategy.
For years, platforms like Google and Facebook gave businesses what felt like unlimited free attention. As that attention became harder to earn—and increasingly expensive to buy—many companies responded by working harder to keep up.
Somewhere along the way, many of us lost the habit of simply connecting with people.
Raj points to an interesting comparison from psychology.
If pressing a button gives you a reward every single time, eventually you'll stop pressing once you've received it. But if the reward only appears occasionally, you'll keep pressing because the uncertainty itself becomes addictive.
That's how many modern platforms are designed.
Feeds no longer have a natural stopping point. Short-form video continuously studies what captures your attention, often before you've consciously decided what interests you. The goal isn't to help your business succeed. The goal is to keep people engaged for as long as possible.
Businesses often mistake success on the platform for success in the marketplace.
Those aren't always the same thing.
Marketing Doesn't Start With Strangers
The biggest shift in Raj's thinking didn't come from studying another platform.
It came from studying his own business.
After years of running an agency, he and his business partner reviewed every client they had served. They weren't interested in where they hoped their business came from. They wanted to know where it had actually come from.
The answer surprised them.
Roughly ten people were responsible for nearly 90 percent of their business through introductions and referrals.
Not ten advertising campaigns.
Not thousands of followers.
Ten relationships.
That discovery completely changed how Raj thought about marketing.
Instead of asking, "How do I reach more strangers?" he began asking, "How do I invest in the people who have already invested in me?"
Sometimes that meant taking someone to coffee.
Sometimes it meant sending thoughtful holiday gifts to clients and referral partners—not because they were part of a marketing funnel, but because those relationships genuinely mattered.
Ironically, those gestures often generated more business than another advertising campaign ever could.
Relationships Come Before Tactics
This doesn't mean advertising, email marketing, or social media stop working.
It means they work best when they're built on a foundation of trust.
Marketing tactics amplify relationships.
They rarely replace them.
That's why Raj often describes marketing as the tail that wags the dog. Businesses spend enormous amounts of time trying to perfect how they communicate before they've invested enough energy into the people they're communicating with.
The strongest marketing strategy isn't simply finding new people.
It's becoming someone worth recommending.
Trust Travels Through People
Raj shared a simple example that illustrates how referrals actually work.
When he needed a plumber, he didn't search endlessly through online reviews. He called his real estate agent because she had a trusted list of professionals she'd confidently recommend.
He trusted the plumber because he trusted her.
That's how referrals work.
Trust isn't transferred through advertisements.
It's transferred through relationships.
But that also creates responsibility.
Every referral reflects on the person making the recommendation. A poor customer experience doesn't just disappoint one client—it weakens the trust behind every future recommendation as well.
That's why relationship-driven businesses still have to deliver exceptional work.
Trust grows slowly.
It can disappear quickly.
A Question Worth Asking
Near the end of the conversation, Raj offered a thought experiment that's surprisingly difficult to ignore.
If you had to build your business today the way you would have thirty years ago—before Google, before Facebook, before social media—what would you do?
Most of the answers probably don't involve creating another piece of content.
You'd call people.
You'd ask for introductions.
You'd reconnect with former clients.
You'd thank someone who helped you.
You'd meet for coffee.
You'd look for opportunities to be generous.
In other words, you'd invest in relationships.
The technology has changed dramatically over the last thirty years.
People haven't.
Trust still matters.
Generosity still matters.
Helping people still matters.
Try This Before Your Next Marketing Campaign
Before investing more money into advertising or spending another week chasing an algorithm, answer one question:
Where have your best customers actually come from?
Not where you hope they came from.
Not where your marketing plan says they should come from.
Where did they really come from?
Trace those relationships back as far as you can.
You may discover that your business has been growing through a much smaller circle of trusted people than you ever realized.
If that's true, perhaps the next investment your business needs isn't another campaign.
Perhaps it's lunch with a former client.
A handwritten thank-you note.
An introduction you can make for someone else.
Or simply reaching back out to someone who already knows your work.
Because the biggest shift in marketing might be this:
Stop acting as though every relationship starts at zero.
Most businesses spend their time trying to earn trust from strangers.
The strongest businesses never stop investing in the trust they've already earned.
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[00:00:00] Marketing Is About People, Not Platforms
Raj Lulla: I think in the broadest definition of marketing, it is the attempt to break through somebody not knowing who you are and tell the story of how you could work together in a way that's successful for both of you. Uh, even if you're a B2B company, you are communicating to a human o- at that other company.
It's always one human communicating to another
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart, because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson, and I think you know I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, probably more than I should.
It, it's been my career for a long time. I love kind of diving into the details and the intricacies and the story of it all, and lately, I've really found myself wondering if we've been making it more complicated than it needs to be in a lot of ways. I mean, every week there's a new platform to master, a new algorithm to understand, a new trick that promises more attention, and none of those are bad, and in fact, I want to learn them.
I want to be able to lean into them.
[00:01:17] Why Marketing Feels So Exhausting Today
Dr. J.J. Peterson: But sometimes I wonder if all that noise about how to do marketing is really distracting us from the thing that's always mattered most, which is people. And in this miniseries on marketing, I wanted to bring my friend Raj Lulla on to talk about a different way of thinking about marketing.
I've known Raj for a long time, and he is the owner and principal strategist at Lulla Consulting, where he spent more than 20 years helping businesses and nonprofits communicate more clearly. He's also the author of The Caring House, which is a novel that he wrote about rebuilding a beautiful life after profound grief.
He's a badass softie, and you'll hear how much influence he's had on this podcast, but in this conversation, we talk about marketing. But what we really talk about is human connection, about finding the people you're actually meant to serve, and about why genuine and quality service will almost always outperform clever tactics in the long run.
So if you've been thinking about how to get back to the basics of communicating human to human when it comes to marketing your brand or your message, this conversation is for you. So I'm so excited for you to hear my conversation today with Raj Lulla.
Raj, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today, um, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that when I decided that I wanted to start Badass Softie and kind of moving into a different direction, you were one of the first people that I reached out to, and we had many conversations about what this could be and is it something that even a voice that needs to be out there, and you are so beyond encouraging to me on so many levels.
And I really do give you a lot of credit for what this has become. And then on top of that, you and I have known each other for, you know, I don't know, five, seven years now, and I have watched you in the marketing space in particular, not only do incredible work when it comes to design and execution and specifically strategy for your clients, but I've watched the way that you treat people when you show up in the room.
And you make people feel seen, you make them feel understood, and you work so hard for their success, sometimes even at the expense of yourself. And I wanted you to be on so people could learn from you because I truly believe that you are the epitome of a badass softie. So thank you so much- ... for being here today.
Raj Lulla: Well, thanks for having me.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: So talk to me. Let's... I, I, I wanna do a little bit of background here. So you did not start out when you came out of school in the marketing space. Um- Nope ... you know, what drew you to marketing, and what was that journey like for you?
Raj Lulla: You know, it's, it's funny 'cause you can kind of read back your story in different ways.
And when I was coming out of high school, I thought that I was going to go to college, spend literally 40 years in nonprofit and church work, uh, and then retire. That, I, that was my entire plan. And then in my first 10 years of, of ministry and nonprofit work, I had seven jobs, and it didn't make any sense to me at all.
I was an A student. I scored in the 99th percentile on my ACTs, and I had internships all the way through college, and then I got out into the world and, like, could not make anything work, uh, for the first decade. So I, I actually really got into communications and marketing thinking that it was just a short-term thing, that I was going back towards non-profit work.
And then I ended up really enjoying it. And I remember even at one point, uh, it was probably like the funniest prayer that I've ever prayed in my whole life, was I said, "God, if you want me to stop doing this, please stop blessing it, 'cause I'm having fun." And, and it just kept going. And that, that was, uh, 11 years ago now.
A- and then of course, part of what I loved about the non-profit work is the storytelling, is the communicating piece of it. And I've always, I always ended up being the guy on staff where they're like, "Oh, you're the young guy. Can you help us put up a Facebook page? Oh, can you help us w- with the website?"
Whatever. And it got to the end where my last job in non-profit was as communications director. I was like, "Oh, this is a job? It's not just the extra stuff they make you do 'cause you're young?" And so I started doing that for a living.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: And what is it in, in this... I'm gonna ask this question because I have another question later, but what is it that you love about marketing?
Raj Lulla: Ooh, that's a complicated question- Yes ... because-
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I'm gonna ask you s- the opposite of that in a minute, but I really wanna know, what is it that, like, drew you to it and, and, and love about it s- in particular?
[00:06:11] The Human Connection We've Forgotten
Raj Lulla: I think in the broadest definition of marketing- It is the attempt to break through somebody not knowing who you are, and begin some kind of relationship with them, and tell the story of how you could work together in a way that's successful for both of you.
Yeah. I think in, in the, like, broad, really idealistic way of thinking about marketing, that's what I love about it, is that it's, it's all about connection. It's all about people at the end of the day. I always tell my clients that, uh, even if you're a B2B company, you're not communicating to a company. Uh, you, you are communicating to a human, uh, at that other company, and that person has a family, they have things they care about, they have, uh, stresses.
And you can be of be- a benefit to that person, even if you're technically a business-to-business, uh, you know, operation. You're always, it's always one human communicating to another.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I, I ask that question partly for my own, because sometimes people are like, "So why do you like marketing?" And I would agree with you that, like, in its truest form, it's about clear communication.
Yeah. And it's about connecting with people who want to know about you and what you can offer, and if it might be of service to them. And that might be if you're trying to sell a widget, or if you're trying to coach somebody, or you're just trying to give them some kind of gift of informa- it doesn't matter.
Ch- marketing in its truest and purest form is telling a story in a way that p- allows people to see that you can serve them. And if it, if you're communicating even clearly, also can communicate that you can't serve them. And, and it's not pressure. Hmm. It's just like, "Oh, I get what you do. I don't need that."
Great. And we're done. Yeah. But that's really at its purest form, it is. So now let me ask you the flip side of that question. What is it that you hate about marketing?
Raj Lulla: What I hate about marketing is- That it has become so much about tactics to please the digital gods, as it were, that, uh, we've honestly lost a lot of sight of that human-to-human connection piece of it.
You know, so many of us spent 10 to 15 years getting attention that felt free from Google and Facebook, now Meta, and, uh, and so we lost a lot of those muscles of actually connecting with other human beings on a personal level. And so then when the tides have turned where that attention is becoming more and more expensive, or you're having to become more and more, um, tuned to the algorithm to get that, quote-unquote, free attention, we all know that it's actually costing a lot right now, but we
But a lot of us feel trapped, or have felt trapped i- in thinking that's all marketing is these days. It's getting attention from strangers on the internet, getting people to like you, and, and it doesn't actually have to be that. A- and so that's what I, I hate about marketing and it's almost to the point where y- when you ask what I liked about marketing, I wa- I just wanna say I don't.
You know, because the impression of it has become so much, like, that that's it, that's the only option. Yeah. Uh, that I don't, I don't even really call myself a marketer anymore.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. Yeah, you've kind of made a shift recently where y- so your agency, actually, so at the end of this podcast, every, every, at the end of every podcast, we talk about how you designed our website Mm-hmm
and the agency that you founded. And you have now kind of moved away from that agency and have kind of started your own thing. And- Yeah ... tell me wh- and, you know, any- anybody who is, uh, who knows us from the past and knows your past and knows your partner knows th- there is no scandal. There is no weirdness there.
You guys, you and Ben are still good friends. It's none of that. But you kind of have felt this shift even in your own soul from- Yeah ... like, "Oh, I don't wanna be spending two days with people working on their SEO, or figuring out a Google Ads or Google- or Meta ads strategy that tries to trick the algorithm into getting us attention."
And because of that, you've kind of shifted into a different space in the marketing, branding strategy. So tell me about that a little bit, about where, how you are now showing up and helping people still be seen, heard, understood, but in a different way.
Raj Lulla: Well, uh, as you mentioned, at Fruitful, uh, Design and Strategy, which was my former company, uh, I still have great love and respect for Ben, who's the, uh, lead designer over there, and anybody who needs anything visual at all should still call him.
I- that's who, it's who I call. So Fruitful was a great combination of design and strategy. It was in the name. And what, you know, 13 years ago, when we started doing work together before I became part of the business, what that meant was, um, that a lot of people need both sides of the house at the same time.
You know, they come to a designer and ask for a website, and then the designer says, "Yes, I'd be happy to make you a website." And the people go, "Great, what should it say?" And the designer goes, "I don't know. I'm not a copywriter." And, uh, and then of course, as y- as you know from, uh, the work with StoryBrand that you've done and other work that you've done, a copywriter's not even necessarily the right solution either, because you have to know what you're talking about before you can write it well.
And so the, I often call marketing the tail that wags the dog, because to figure out how we're gonna say it, we have to actually figure out what we're talking about first, which sometimes actually impacts the business itself. It impacts the strategy of who's our customer, what do we sell, all those things.
So, um, you know, 13 years ago it made sense for us to sell that together. And then a few years ago, everybody is pretty aware of things that have happened in the world, but the two big things as I see them is interest rates went up and AI were launched. This actually happened just about the same time. I know it happened within a 12, uh, 12-month span of each other.
[00:12:17] How Algorithms Changed Marketing
Raj Lulla: And so what happened was that capital was so much less free in the economy that people's buyers, uh, really shrunk up overnight. It, it was, it was tough for a lot of businesses, end of '22, beginning of '23. And, uh, and so, uh, people started really expecting more from their marketing agencies. And so that transformation between we had a bad website to we have a good website now wasn't enough for a lot of our clients.
And then on top of that, the release of AI started muddying the waters with, well, maybe we can just put a lot of content on Facebook or Google or a blog or whatever to get all this attention that used to be free to us, and we need that attention back because it's not as easy to get customers anymore.
And while I understand the temptation of that, that world has changed a lot, too. I mean again, like let's, little time machine here, right? Go back all the way to when Facebook started, when you had to have a college email address. I was on Facebook at that time, if anybody wants to know how old I am. You can tell by the gray hair, it's, I mean, it's fine.
But um, you know, when, when you used to have that college email address, if you wanted to look at what was going on in somebody's life on Facebook, you had to go to their page. It was a page devoted to that person. And, and if you wanted to tell other people what was going on in your life, you had to write on your own wall, as they called it.
You know? Like, if you wanted to f- know what your aunt had for breakfast, you... First of all, she would have to be a college student, and then secondly, you would have to go to her page, and she would have to write on her own wall and, and post a picture of her breakfast food to know what's going on there.
You didn't know everybody's political opinion or anything like that because it wasn't being served to you. And then through the years, as Meta has cannibalized other platforms' best things, uh, you know, so it started with, uh, Twitter, believe it or not. So, uh, it cannibalized the Twitter business model of having a feed.
And, uh, I don't know if anybody remembers, you used to be able to get to the bottom of the feed. There was a point where it said, "That's all there is today," um, or, "You're all caught up." It was crazy. Like, people barely remember that, that this is like, that's actually how it used to work. It had an endpoint.
And then, you know, uh, Facebook hires all these, uh, people who used to work in, like, online gambling and, and casinos and all these things to hack our attention to just like, how can we make you want a little bit more? Do you know that it actually, uh, you know, these platforms, they, um, it, they, they don't give you good stuff all the time, because if they gave you good stuff all the time, you'd go, "Wow, that was great.
I'm all done." They actually make it what's called an intermittent reward, which is, uh, they, they figured out from doing studies on rats, th- not, Facebook didn't do the studies on rats, but scientists did it, that, uh, if you, if they press a lever and, uh, and they get a treat, then they'll press the lever when they want a treat.
But if you pl- press the lever and sometimes you get a treat, then you'll push the lever all the time, way more than if you, uh, got a treat every time. 'Cause you would, if the treat's automatic, you go, "Okay, cool. I can just go push this and I'll get something nice, and then I'll be all done." But if you aren't sure, if it's one out of every three times, every five times, whatever.
What that means from a digital perspective is that these algorithms then started becoming things where, like, oh, one thing that I like, maybe one thing that really makes me mad, one thing I'm indifferent to. Okay, oh, there's a cute video of kittens. I like that one. Okay. And then, then, then the pattern repeats, and, and it keeps you coming back for more and more and more because what you're doing is you're seeing the stuff you don't like, and you're trying to get back to, like, okay, I wanna end on one that I like.
I, you know, I used to play basketball with my brother in the driveway, and We used to always end on a make. You don't wanna end on a miss, you know? So it doesn't matter how tired you are, it's, "Okay, I gotta make one more shot, then we're going inside." It's ki- it's like that. That, so when they took over Twitter's feed model, that's what happened, and then you got Instagram, so we got, uh, lots of pictures in the feed.
And then, uh, you know, eventually when TikTok comes along, the we decide what you wanna see model came along, and that is where things got really, really dangerous for businesses. Uh, and, and honestly for everyone. But this is kind of the ultimate attention hacking mechanism, because people are... Uh, you, you don't even have to tell it what you like anymore.
Even if you go follow your favorite band or your, your favorite speaker, you follow JJ, follow anybody, you're not going to see that stuff anymore. What you're gonna see is the stuff that you pause on for three-tenths of a second, and it could be because it's an attractive girl or an attractive guy dancing, it could be because it had food.
Uh, there's this rule now that y- if you have to have motion in the beginning of your, uh, video. It doesn't matter why, but it's literally just because humans' eyeballs are attracted to motion, like, because we're looking out for bears and l- you know, things in the bushes historically. And so if you move a little bit for any reason in the beginning of your video, then it'll get more views.
It's so crazy and so silly. It's, like, it's gotten to the point where it's literally trying to hack into the things that make us pay attention without, without Promising it's gonna provide any value to us.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: S- it's weird that you hate marketing. It's weird after hearing all that. It's weird that, like, you're like, "Oh, I don't really like marketing."
Huh, that's strange, Raj. I wonder why.
Raj Lulla: I mean, honestly, I'm, I'm overjoyed that, you know, the court in Phoenix, I think it was, uh, finally actually said that these companies are, companies are negligent in the way that they've designed their product, that they have made it addictive. Which, I mean, if you think about it, I don't think I was alive when they finally decided that cigarettes were addictive, and they started holding those companies accountable, but, but I mean, we're, like, in that moment now.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah.
Raj Lulla: Where, where people are saying, "Actually, this shares similar characteristics to gambling and cigarettes." Which is- And
Dr. J.J. Peterson: we're living through that ... why I think, you know, for me, as we, you know, kind of what, uh, why I wanted to start that conversation of why, what do you like about marketing, what do you not like about marketing, bec- is because of this very thing.
I think a lot of people are feeling it. Yeah. They're feeling it as consumers, right? There's a frustration, and also because of the way that we've been trained by these different platforms, there's a higher level of anxiety, there's a higher level of emptiness that comes with a lot of it. And then also, companies are now having to work harder to make that human-to-human connection, like we were talking about earlier, and get that story out there that actually communicates it in a way that shows that is helpful to people versus just entertaining or attention-grabbing.
And that is, I think, for a lot of peo- 'cause they, they feel like, "Well, if I'm gonna show up as a leader or as a brand, I have to show up in a way that hacks the algorithm and that, um, leans into these things versus maybe stepping back and saying, 'I don't wanna participate in these things in this way.'" And so as you're kind of moving into this new area, and you're saying, "Okay, I actually don't wanna be a part of this type of machine anymore.
I wanna actually be better and stronger about helping people communicate human to human," but how are you then coming alongside companies or individuals and challenging them on that and helping them understand that maybe there's a different way of approaching this?
[00:20:09] Relationships Grow Businesses—Not Attention
Raj Lulla: Ultimately it, it comes down to relationship.
That, that is, I mean, if you remember nothing else that I said- It, it comes down to relationship at the end of the day. And we have learned so many of the wrong lessons from tech companies. Uh, you know, there's this, uh, concept that Cory Doctorow came up with called enshittification, sorry for the word there, but, uh, where, you know, a product is basically free at the beginning, something like Gmail or something like that, and then, uh, and it's, it's free forever and storage is free and all those things.
And then they go, "Oh, okay, well, up to 10 gigabytes." And you're like, "I'm never gonna use 10 gigabytes of email anyway. It's fine." And then they're like, "Okay, well, actually, email's really expensive, so now anything over one gigabyte you have to pay for." And it's this, the ... It's like this constant squeezing down to the, you know, to how much can we optimize profit?
Like, how much will people take from us? Like, how, how much abuse will they take from us, uh, before they leave? And then, and then dial it back just 1% from that, and then that's the "sweet spot" of, of a business model. That is ... I mean, look, if you're a tech monopoly and you can get away with it, I think it's wrong, but there's nothing I can do about it.
But if you're anybody else and you rely on people to do business, which is all of us that aren't, you know, Tim Cook or whoever, then, then you have to, you have to worry about relationships first. You have to care about relationships first. Uh, I know that you and I are both big fans of unreasonable hospitality, uh, and that's for
That's a big reason. Fruitful, uh, you know, when, when I was leading the company, we were known for the holiday gifts that we would send out. And, you know, every spring we would start getting leads again from people that we had sent holiday gifts to. And it wasn't why we did it. It was just part of a ... Uh, you know, we had, had a list of like, hey, these are people who have invested in our success, whether it being our customers or being partners with us.
Uh, I know you've gotten some from us and And just saying like, "Hey, these are the people that we're gonna appreciate along the way." And it always served us well. The only- Yeah ... time we ever spent money on ads, it didn't work. But, but the more we invested into those things, the more it worked.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Now, if, if you are, I, I would say, if you are, say, like a plumber, or you are a, you know, something that somebody searches for in the middle of the night because of an emergency, then you better be ranking pretty high on Google, right?
Because- Yeah ... you're n- if you haven't built those relationships already. If you have, then you don't have to spend it on that, so there, that's one thing. But if, you know, if you are the kind of person who is like, people are searching for best mechanic, best, uh, plumber, best, you know, something like that that you haven't built up a relationship for, yes, I understand that.
But most people who are, say, even, like, in the leadership space, like business coaches and marketing agencies and things like that, very few of them that I know are actually finding real business with strangers that have zero- Yeah ... connection or no referral. Most people, including myself, the business that I get is not, is from either when I am in a room, show up on a stage and give a talk and somebody gets to meet me there, or it's a referral from somebody else.
That's, tho- that's where I make my biggest connection. Even like this, you know? People who are listening to this podcast, most of them are people that I have met at some point in my life, and then it started to spread because they then shared the word w- the, the word about this with their friends. Yeah.
It's not because I did Google ads that made people discover Badass Softie, and it's not 'cause I did Google ads or Facebook or showed up on LinkedIn in all the ways that I got strangers who've never heard of me before. And maybe that's 'cause I'm bad at it, but- ... I would argue that most people that I talk to, when we talk about strategy about ads and Instagram and Facebook, that they would say that same thing.
They've invested a ton of money in it, and it just hasn't performed well, and the place that they actually get the most business is through referrals and connection. And so when we're thinking about that in a marketing space- What do people then need to, what would you say then people need to create in order to be prepared to build on those k- types of connections?
What is some strategy?
[00:24:40] Where Your Best Customers Really Come From
Dr. J.J. Peterson: If they're gonna say, "Hey, I'm gonna pause on my Facebook ads and my Instagram strategy. Not that I, it's done, but I'm gonna pause on that for a second and I'm gonna actually lean into my human connection," what are some things that people need to think about in preparation for that kind of strategy?
Raj Lulla: So, uh, Ben and I, when, when I was still at Fruitful, we sat down, this was maybe a year and a half, two years ago now, and we , we took every project file that we ever had, uh, every folder, uh, uh, and they were all named by clients, and we just made a simple list. Who would we wanna work with again? Who wouldn't we wanna work with again?
Now, some of them were, um, we love them, but they, they were a nonprofit that was never gonna have any money, and they're better being served by somebody at the intern level or something. Their needs are not as, uh, significant. They value the work, but they just can't pay for it. And then some of them were, this was truly a horrible experience, and I don't even wanna see this person again, let alone do business with them again And what we found was, you know, out of the, I don't know, 100 or so companies that we, that we, uh, were on the we would love to work with them again list, there, uh, we started asking the question, "Okay, where did we find these people?"
And I wanna say that it came down to, uh, 10 people who had connected us with literally over a million dollars in business. And, a- and so that's one place to start, is just going like, "Okay, where do our best customers come from?" And to your point, it's generally not Google, uh, or, or, you know, social. When you're talking about the, the plumber, that's not how I found my plumber.
It wasn't but through a middle of the night thing. Usually, if you end up going with, uh, one of those people, they can get a customer for life if it's amazing, but most of the emergency plumbing stuff I've ever dealt with in my life, it's, you know, three times the price to haul somebody out on a night or a weekend or a holiday, and it's like, "Oh, well I'm glad that they saved my bacon, but I'm going back to my other guy because, like, I, I need somebody I can actually afford."
You know where I got my plumber? I got my plumber because my real estate agent had a list of, "Here's the home services professionals I trust." And I know that my plumber's on that list because they've bailed her out a lot of times. You know, a family's moving into a house and all of a sudden, you know, there's a big rainstorm and the sump pump backs up or whatever, and they needed relief.
And, and so through her confidence in these people, I had confidence in them. Now, one thing I will tell you is that, and again, this comes back to the relationship part, you have to serve your customers really, really well in the actual price, in the actual deliverable. You actually have to deliver really well for them.
Because in that kind of marketing, if you don't do it well, you screw it up for everybody else on the list. Because if I go, "Oh, look, I tried your plumber, and they were awful. They, they were so expensive, they tracked mud across the house, the, you know, the guy hit on my wife," whatever, like, you're just
You're never gonna go back to that list, a- that person, and you're, you're gonna question everybody else on the list. Go, "Oh, maybe they paid to be on that list. I don't know why they're there." And so, you know, part of it is, like, where did the good business come from, and then what environment does that live in?
And it ... And really, it's about building trust. You know, you talked about this podcast, and it's like- You're giving people great marketing advice for free. You're establishing trust before you ever ask them for anything. And, uh, and that's what we should do, is, is to be as good to people as we possibly can.
Uh, never underestimate the power of a free coffee either. Goodness, I, you know, having moved on from the agency world, it- we had a lot of, like, ki- kind of family struggle and stuff going on this spring, a- and that was part of my decision to move on, is I needed to be more present as a dad. And, uh, I was connecting with some people that I knew would be good connections as I started a new thing.
And JJ, I haven't bought a coffee in, uh, you know, probably four months. But you know why? It's because I bought every coffee for 13 years And, and that's, that's what it is, is it's about rebuilding these connections with people. You know, I, I like to challenge people to think, look, if a, if a healthy ads budget of, uh, you know, for a small business is, I mean, uh, you tell me what, what it is, but I know that most agencies I've talked to won't even talk to you if, if you've got less than $3,000 a month to spend on this.
So call it anywhere from 30 to 60 grand. Uh, if you imagine, okay, so there's 10 people that, that accounted for like 90% of our business. If I spent $30,000 on those 10 people, if I took them out to the nicest dinners that they've ever had, um, I get the feeling it would perform a lot better, not because I'm bribing them into giving, giving me business, but because if I spent $3,000 a, a year on each of those clients to say, "Hey, thanks for what you've done for us.
What can I do for you?" And so maybe it's not even taking them out to dinner, but maybe it's, it's saying like, "Oh, hey, you need this?" And maybe it's not even spending that money, but spending the equivalent. Like, they need a quick postcard, you know, designed for them or, or they need some marketing advice or something.
It's like I'm investing that equivalent time back into the relationship, $3,000 worth of time into that relationship. It goes farther because it builds those natural networks. You remember when social media used to be called social networking? You know? It's like, uh, a lot of the future is in the past. If we,
[00:30:24] Stop Marketing Like Everyone Is a Stranger
Raj Lulla: if we sat down and asked ourselves, "If I had to build this business 30 years ago without Facebook, without Google, what would I do?"
That's where a lot of our answers lie, is who, who am I connected to? Who connects me to other people? Who do I need to show appreciation to? How do I show that appreciation? And how do I make sure that every customer has the best experience that they could possibly have? Those things will get you really far before you ever even open up your laptop.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: I love that. That's actually ... That's such an incredible way to frame that. You know, if I, if I had to start this, if I was starting this now, but it was like 30 years ago, how would I build it without n- all of these tricks- Yeah ... and algorithms? And this is ... You know, I would say- I, I, this isn't to bash on people who- No
do use those and use them well, and who are finding success in it. But I think for a lot of people, it has become really frustrating, and frankly, it's actually not effective for their brand or their personality. And to offer people an alternative and say, "Well, what if you were a little bit more creative about the customers you already have," and leaning into those, and looking at who your best customers are, and trying to find out where they are, where they came from, and how we can get back into that space.
And then just showing up as a human who is generous and kind and serves people really, really well. Not that you s- can't do Google ads and all those other things. In fact- Yeah ... and I know you, like, help people with language on websites, and help people with emails. And, uh, you know- Yep ... you do all of those things as well.
So it's not that it's, uh, don't do those things. It's that maybe we should start asking our questions, uh, the question about, like, all these things that we just assume have to be the way that we market ourselves these days, is that really how we have to do it? And is that ef- most effective for me and my brand, and frankly, my customers?
Because maybe y- the customers who need you the most are not going to find you the way that you're trying to show up. So really being intentional about all of that, and I think that's so important. And that's, again, why I wanted to have you kind of close this little section out, is 'cause I want people to start thinking about marketing a little bit differently.
Yeah. And the way that you show up and interact and communicate face-to-face is also, is a form of marketing, and I think we can lean back into that a little bit. That's gonna be really ... That's very exciting for me to think about, that, just that question. If I was starting this 30 years ago, how would I do it?
And kind of lean into that. So Raj, thank you so much. Um, I really appreciate this conversation, and just kind of the, the different perspective. If, if anybody is interested in talking to you about their own strategy, that goes beyond just, like, taking people to coffee. I know you, you go deeper than that. So I know when people think, "Well, I already, I can take people to coffee."
Well, you do a lot more than that. You kn- You, because you understand how the algorithms work, and how the tools work, and how to use them most effectively, you show up and help people with strategy and tools, not just words. Um, but if, uh, people are interested in kind of exploring that a little bit further with you, how can they find you?
Raj Lulla: Yeah. You can find me at lullaconsulting.com. That's L-U-L-L-A consulting.com. And, uh, you can also just, uh, ask JJ for my email. I, he can give it to you. Yeah.
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Yeah. I'll give it to you. I'll give you his phone number, his address- Yeah ... all the things. You can, you can stalk Raj like I do. Uh, so well thank you, honestly.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited about the, the work that you've done, and then the, kind of this new shift that you're moving into. Um, and I am so grateful for your influence on my life and on this podcast, and what we're building together as a community. So thank you for being here, and thank you for being a badass softie.
Raj Lulla: Thank you.
[00:34:10] One Question to Change Your Marketing
Dr. J.J. Peterson: Raj, thank you so much for just that perspective and a reminder that it is all about the human-to-human connection. 'Cause I don- I don't know, if you're like me, you can get really frustrated with the way that you have to learn how to market these days with the tools that we have. And I, I use them.
I use Instagram, I use email, I use even Facebook ads and Instagram ads. I, I get it, and I help my clients use them as well. However, the thing that really stuck out to me from this conversation that I feel like I wanna lean into a little bit more is the question that Raj asked me at the end. If you had to build your business 30 years ago, before Google, before Facebook, before social media, before all the technology we rely on today, what would you do?
I think that is such an important question for me in the way that I wanna show up in this world. Who would I call? Who would I have coffee with? Who would I introduce myself to? Where would I show up? You know, who am I gonna r- what customers am I gonna reach back out to in order to get referrals from?
It's an interesting thought experiment because it reminds me that the tools have changed, but people have not. Relationships still matter. Trust still matters. Helping people still matters. And so my challenge for you today as we close this out is asking yourself that same question. If you had to communicate your message starting 30 years ago without all the tools, what would you do?
And maybe it's time to lean back into that and the relationships that are found there, because that may be one of the greatest opportunities you have when it comes to marketing. So let me leave you with this. May you have the courage to reach out instead of waiting to be found. May you be known for your generosity before you're known for your expertise.
May you build something that grows because people can't help but tell others about it. And may you never forget that behind every customer, every client, every opportunity is simply another human being hoping to be seen, understood, and served. Because we believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun and driven, powerful and deeply human.
Your leadership can inspire, your success can have soul, and your ambition can make space for everyone. That's why you're a badass softie. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Badasssoftie.com is crafted by Fruitful Design and Strategy.