Why Success Doesn’t Always Feel the Way You Expect
Success doesn’t always feel the way you expect it to. As things start working, the pressure shifts, the stakes rise, and it can become harder to stay connected to yourself in the process. Drawing on years of experience working with high-performing artists, Al Andrews shares what actually helps people stay grounded as they grow—and why success can feel isolating if you’re not paying attention.
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There’s a point where things begin to work—and instead of feeling the way you imagined, the experience becomes harder to explain.
From the outside, it looks like progress. The effort is paying off, opportunities are opening up, and the thing you’ve been building has traction. If someone asked, you’d probably say it’s going well. But internally, something has shifted. Not in a way that’s obviously wrong, and not in a way that stops you, but in a way that’s just different enough to notice if you’re paying attention.
Al Andrews has spent years working with artists at every stage of success—people chasing the dream, and people who have already reached it. One of the patterns he’s seen consistently is that success doesn’t just change what you do; it changes how you experience yourself inside of it. As he puts it, there is often “a distance between what people see and imagine and what really is.”
That distance doesn’t appear all at once. It builds gradually, often through small, reasonable adjustments that make sense in the moment.
When Growth Starts to Change the Experience
Most people expect success to bring some level of relief, as though something will settle once things are working. In reality, growth tends to introduce a different kind of pressure. More people are paying attention, more decisions carry weight, and more feels at stake.
This is often where the definition of “enough” starts to shift, and without realizing it, the goalposts keep moving just out of reach.
None of this is inherently negative—it’s often exactly what you’ve been working toward—but it does change how the work feels.
As that pressure increases, it’s natural to become more aware of how things land. You start thinking more carefully about what you say, how you show up, and how your decisions will be received. Over time, that awareness can shift from being helpful to being heavy, especially when it begins to shape your behavior more than your instincts do.
This is the kind of tension many leaders try to resolve too quickly, when in reality it’s often a sign that something important is being held at the same time.
The result isn’t usually dramatic. It’s subtle. You might find yourself choosing the version of a story that makes the most sense instead of the one that feels the most true, or holding back something you would have said without hesitation in the past. These are small moments, but they add up, and they begin to create space between who you are and how you show up.
The Gap Between Who You Are and Who People See
As things grow, people respond to a version of you that feels consistent, capable, and clear. Internally, your experience is more complex. You’re still figuring things out, still navigating uncertainty, still reacting in ways that aren’t always polished or predictable.
That gap—the one between perception and reality—isn’t inherently a problem. In many ways, it’s part of being human. But when it widens too much, it becomes difficult to feel fully known. You can be recognized for what you do while feeling less certain that people actually see you, and that tension changes how success feels.
This is often where a leader’s point of view starts to drift—the perspective shaped by their experiences, beliefs, and the ideas they’ve taken time to make their own.
Al has seen this play out repeatedly, especially among people who are doing well on paper but feel increasingly disconnected from their own lives. The work continues to move forward, but the experience of it becomes more isolating. And that isolation doesn’t come from a lack of people—it comes from a lack of spaces where you can be fully honest.
Why Holding On Tighter Doesn’t Help
When something starts to feel off, the instinct for many people is to tighten their grip. To protect what they’ve built, maintain control, and ensure that things keep working. It makes sense, especially when there’s more at stake than there used to be.
But that instinct often has the opposite effect.
As Al describes it, “there’s a tendency to want to hold it tight… but that doesn’t work. It’s isolating, it hurts.”
The more everything runs through you, the heavier it becomes. The responsibility doesn’t just stay external—it starts to shape your internal experience of the work.
What Changes When You Share the Weight
One of the ways people stay grounded as they grow is by learning to distribute that weight instead of carrying it alone. This doesn’t just mean delegating tasks; it means allowing other people to step into meaningful roles, contribute in visible ways, and influence outcomes.
Al often talks about this as “sharing your stage,” but what he’s really describing is a shift in posture. Instead of holding everything tightly, you begin to create space. You invite others into the work, not just to help you manage it, but to participate in it.
That shift does more than lighten the load. It changes your relationship to the work itself. It becomes less about maintaining control and more about building something that isn’t dependent on you alone.
Staying Connected to Yourself as Things Expand
There isn’t a single practice that prevents the disconnect that can come with success. Instead, it tends to come from a series of small decisions that keep you aligned over time.
That might look like choosing honesty over polish in a conversation, even when it feels less refined. It might mean paying attention when something feels off instead of pushing past it in the name of progress. It might involve maintaining relationships where you don’t have to manage how you’re perceived, where you can show up without editing yourself.
These aren’t dramatic shifts, but they create space for you to remain connected to who you are as everything around you changes.
The Part Most People Avoid
There’s another piece of this that often goes unaddressed, even though it plays a significant role in how people experience success.
At some point, everyone encounters moments of loss, disappointment, or grief—things that don’t resolve simply because other areas of life are going well. Al describes this as something many people learn to avoid early on, often without realizing it.
“The flight from sorrow leads to the loss of hope,” he says.
Avoiding those experiences doesn’t remove them. It simply pushes them out of view, where they continue to shape how you feel and respond. Over time, that avoidance can contribute to the very sense of disconnection people are trying to escape.
Staying grounded, in part, means being willing to acknowledge those moments instead of moving past them too quickly. It means allowing yourself to process what’s difficult, not just what’s working.
Paying Attention While It’s Happening
Success isn’t the problem. Growth isn’t the problem. The challenge is staying aware of how those things are changing your internal experience as they unfold.
Because the shift doesn’t usually happen all at once. It happens gradually, in ways that are easy to overlook when you’re focused on results. The difference is whether you notice it early enough to respond—whether you remain connected to how things feel, not just how they look.
Over time, that awareness becomes the thing that allows you to continue building without losing your sense of self in the process. Not by avoiding success, but by staying present enough to move through it honestly.
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[00:00:00] You Got What You Wanted… Now What?
Dr. JJ Perterson: Today on the podcast, we are going to talk about what it looks like to succeed without losing your soul. And if you've ever wondered what it looks like to chase something big and not lose yourself when you get there, then this episode is for you.
Welcome to Badass Softie, a podcast for leaders who are unapologetically ambitious and want to lead with heart because you're allowed to chase big goals without losing what makes you human. I'm your host, Dr. JJ Peterson, and today I am talking to one of my. Absolute favorite people in the entire world.
Al Andrews Al is the founder of Porter's Call, which is a Nashville based nonprofit that really has quietly become this refuge for recording artists. They offer free counseling and support and community for honestly, some of the biggest names in music. You've heard these people sing and for years. Al has been invited into rooms that you know where he can walk alongside artists as they rise and as they struggle.
And sometimes as they realize the dream they chased maybe doesn't feel the same way they thought it would. And over time he started noticing patterns and patterns in what helps people stay grounded. Patterns in what slowly pulls people apart and patterns in what actually. Takes to succeed and still feel like yourself at the end.
And if you've ever wondered what it looks like to chase something big and not lose yourself when you get there, then I am so excited for us to learn today from my friend Al Andrews. I could not be more excited that you are here. You are our very first guest. Oh my gosh. In our podcast studio. And I knew when I started this podcast, you and I talked very early on and I knew I wanted you to be our first guest.
Oh, thank you. And there is a reason why, because I've watched, well, I'll just say in my own life, you have been a mentor. You have been an inspiration and. I, uh, feel a peace around you and a calmness that I don't get around a lot of other people. And also in that you have accomplished huge things and changed the world and so that, I think so much so you are the heart.
Badass softie. Like, if I have an aspirational identity for who I wanna be when I grow up in this space, it's you. And so I wanted you to be here, and that is why you are on Badass Softie today. So
Al Andrews: welcome. I'm glad to be here. Thanks so much. Those are kind words,
[00:02:43] Why This Conversation Matters
Dr. JJ Perterson: so I, let's just dive into it. When I, I, I introed you a little bit ahead of time and talked about what you have done in the world, but tell me about what you have built.
And how you are helping people just succeed without losing their soul. Say so. So let's kinda start back a little bit towards the beginning of how Sure. What, you know, founding.
Al Andrews: Sure. Um, moved to town in 97 and, uh, started a private practice in Nashville and. After about the first year, I just looked at my, uh, clientele and it was 90% music.
Mm-hmm. All different kinds of things. It was like, um, uh, a bus driver, a manager, a backup singer, a keyboard player, an artist, all this. I could have started a label or something if I was, didn't have integrity. Um, but the more and more artists that I saw. Um, the more, uh, frustrated I got because, um, artists couldn't come regularly and most of 'em as they begin their career, um, couldn't afford me.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And, but I also saw some themes, um, what to do with too much fame. Not enough fame, too much money, not enough money. Um, struggling with the distance between what people see and imagine and what really is.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And I found myself more and more frustrated with, I don't feel like I'm being. Enough help to these folks just because of the way it was working.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah, I guess. I think anybody, I mean, you could say this about business, you could say this about Hollywood, and you can definitely say this about the music industry in Nashville.
Al Andrews: Mm-hmm.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah. Is that like these are places that people come to build a dream? Yeah. Whether you're building a business or buildings a career in the arts.
[00:04:46] What Happens When You Finally Reach the Dream
Dr. JJ Perterson: Mm-hmm. It's like you get these, you have these dreams and pursuing these dreams. Obviously everybody knows it's hard, like, you know, it's like there's a lot of luck involved. It's hard work involved, but there's some. Patterns that get developed of like, okay, you're not successful enough. Yeah. What problems are created with that?
Yeah. When you're living in a world where everybody else around you is, is maybe even less talented. Yeah. Yeah. And getting more famous. And then there's also that next level of what happens when you achieve your dreams. Yeah. And now you do have money and fame and you've created a persona and your family is not with you on the road and all these things.
I can't imagine. You know, well, I can't imagine how hard that is for a lot of people. Yes. And, and you decided then that you were gonna kind of shift your practice to be more focused in that specific space.
Al Andrews: Yes. In fact, uh, the way it happened was while I was frustrated and trying to think of. Something that would be different.
Um, uh, two leaders in the music industry, um, bill Hearn and Peter York, who were, uh, leaders at EMI music, um, they were struggling with, we are asking artists to live a very crazy life. And we're not doing anything to help them live that life. So they were, while I was over here, they were having that discussion and, um, they came to me and said, we wanna figure out something to do with artists.
And so collaboratively, we began to dream and dream and then, uh, started this nonprofit we call Porter's Call in, uh, 2001.
Dr. JJ Perterson: The way that works is, so people who are artists, like kind of front of house kind of people. Mm-hmm. Like who are performers, leaders in bands or bands in general. Right. They can come to you in a way that is not kind of the normal, like you said, they can't come all the time, so you, you know, it's not like a weekly thing sometimes.
And then the, the industry, the the, uh, the labels pay for it.
Al Andrews: Any, basically, uh, anybody who's a recording artist can come to get the help they need no matter what it is. And we raise money. Uh, we've raised money from people who make money from artists. Mm-hmm. And over the years, they've gotten it and have been very generous.
And I'm retired now, but it's keeping on going. And, um, uh. Thousands of artists over the years have come our way and it's, it's been a joy to see
Dr. JJ Perterson: and I love that 'cause everybody comes in at the same level. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you are, you know, you are a, you know, multi-platinum selling artist or you are just starting out and they're trying to build you up.
You come in at the same level, it's the same, you know, you come in for free, it's taken care of and it's actually giving you tools no matter what stage you're at in life. And I personally know, you know, a number of my friends who are in the industry have been benefit. Have benefited from it and they would say their lives have been changed because of the work that they've done with you and your team.
And you know why, again, kind of why I wanted you to be on here is first of all, you know, like I said, aspirational, who I wanna be when I grow up. But the other piece of it is, I think so many of us are in this space. Where we are, you know, may not be an artist specifically, but are pursuing dreams, building businesses, uh, building teams, you know, trying to pursue even kind of like even if you're, you know, a teacher in school, it's like, well, what I'm trying to achieve and do things and what does that mean for me to be a great teacher and have great influence?
[00:08:31] When Enough Doesn’t Feel Like Enough
Dr. JJ Perterson: Mm-hmm. But especially I think for business owners, yes. You know, it's that we're in this space of like, when is enough enough? How do I. I know that I need to follow the process. Right? It's a slow process to build, but when it's not going the way I want, that sucks. Yeah. And then what happens when I get everything I want and now it's too much or it's not, doesn't fulfill me the way I want.
Yeah. And you, we and I have talked over the years about different patterns and themes that you've seen. Mm-hmm. And you've started to kind of. Capture ways to combat that a little bit, to help people either on their way up or at the top succeed while keeping their soul, keeping their family. Keeping their humanity.
Mm-hmm. And so I want you to talk about that a little bit today and to kind of kick us off, one of the things that I love that you talk about of how to kind of, kind of do this one.
[00:09:30] What It Means to Share Your Stage
Dr. JJ Perterson: One of the ways to kind of maintain your integrity while growing is, uh, I think you say share your stage.
Al Andrews: Yeah.
Dr. JJ Perterson: What do you mean by that?
Al Andrews: Well, um, backing up just a little bit, um, a number of years ago, a record company came to me and said, would you come. To our staff and talk about how to help keep artists healthy. And so I started thinking of things that I'd seen, I'd known, or that I'd heard that would help somebody stay healthy. And uh, the first thing I thought of, um, and based on things I've just observed.
Mm-hmm. And the first thing I thought of was, as you said, share your stage and what that means is. Um, as you grow, uh, in your bus, it is, you're, you're so right. It's very easily translated from artists to business.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Mm-hmm.
Al Andrews: Um, but as you grow and, and as you get lifted up and as you are the person, um, there's a tendency to want to.
Hold it tight. You've built it out after all. And I want, I wanna, I'm gonna be very closed and keep this thing, and, uh, but that doesn't work. Mm-hmm. It's isolating, it hurts. And when I, when I look at artists, I've, I've seen a few artists share their stage. It's unbelievable. I saw one guy who had a Christmas concert, skier Hornet, and it's a two hour show and he had a band of six people and he let every band member do a solo Think of that.
That's probably more than 30 minutes of his time. Every one of them did a solo. Yeah, I could just weep if I remember, because I, I saw it every year and some of those people took off because of that. Um, there's another guy who's just really famous and he takes people without recognizable names. To show them off.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah. I remember being very impressed with Jason Isabel specifically. I don't know if you know him. I, I don't. But he, um, I've watched him, he's achieved a level of fame and then he's very, been very specific about giving stage to people who don't get the stage. Yeah. People who are often from marginalized communities, especially in the country space.
Al Andrews: Yeah.
Dr. JJ Perterson: And put, giving them a platform. And I know I've been a benefit, you know, Donna Miller. He had a stage and he shared his stage with me through StoryBrand. He allowed me to work with him and it changed my life. I, I believe it changed his as well. Yeah. You know, in the process and we were able to build something together.
But he shared his stage. I did not have a stage at that time, and it's really, uh, I do think it's benefit. For both. Because you're right.
[00:12:41] How Success Can Start to Feel Isolating
Dr. JJ Perterson: When you just, when you just go up yourself, you have to carry the whole burden yourself.
Al Andrews: Yeah.
Dr. JJ Perterson: You also, um, ha it again, it, it becomes the more stress, it becomes isolating.
And if you want to be in a space where you actually are enjoying what you're doing, you bring other people with you. Yeah. And I think that, that's so powerful. Taylor Swift does that. Yeah. Like, you know, she invites people on stage in her concert. When they go up there, their streams go up. You know, they, it's kind of unbelievable to watch.
Al Andrews: Well, I remember one time one of these guys came back from a big tour where he was one of the people that was just pushed out on stage and he, he brought a picture with him of the camera behind him. Showing his back and then this huge crowd.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And it, he was like, I got to do this. Yeah. And he gave me a really nice room and he paid me well.
Yeah. And, um, imagine
Dr. JJ Perterson: that,
Al Andrews: and all these things. And I, I think there's something about sharing your stage that keeps you humble.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: That goes, it's not all about me, it's. It's my generosity
Dr. JJ Perterson: mm-hmm.
Al Andrews: In this world to help other people rise up.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And that that'll keep you, that'll keep you centered.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Grounded for sure.
Al Andrews: Yeah.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Now what, what are some other things that you have noticed? Well,
[00:14:08] The Gap Between Who You Are and Who People See
Al Andrews: you know, one of the things that. I thought about was what does it mean to bridge the distance between who people perceive you to be or fantasize you to be and who you know you are.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: Um, because let's face it, if you get out there on stage and you do a bang up job, people.
Have an image of what you're like, what you'd be like to live with. You'd be their best friend, whatever. They just have this image. They do. I, I know if I give a good talk, I go. If people just based it off that they think I'm an amazing person,
Dr. JJ Perterson: and we know that's not true, we know that's not true.
Al Andrews: If my wife is sitting there, it's always grounding, you know?
So it's very helpful. Um, but I go, what does it mean to be who you are up there versus an image of who you want to be?
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: Um, and that's, I, I remember not long ago I was giving a talk and I had, I'd had an experience and, and somehow worked this experience into the talk and it, the, it was like this. I said, um, I.
You know, if I'm driving on, uh, highway four 40 and going down to Franklin from Nashville, um, in the afternoon there's a two mile line to get onto the interstate. And I go, this is ridiculous to sit in this line. And so I get on the outside because there's always a slow truck and that you can pull in front of, you know, and, and then you only have a half mile to go.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, so that's what I do. And, uh, the other, uh, before I gave this talk. I had done that and I had about a half mile to go and somebody came up and tried to get in front of me and I sped up I, which is just, and, and I, I stopped and went. Oh my gosh. But I told that story and that's not a very flattering story.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: But it was so interesting when I told it, um. You could see a change in the audience.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah,
Al Andrews: I saw some. Yeah, me too. I mean, a number of that, but I saw them lean forward and I think that's because I bridged the distance. Mm-hmm. That is a very unflattering thing to, to tell. Um, and I didn't do it because of that, but, but I realized at that time it, it bridged the distance.
Yeah. And, um. I, I just think it's important to try to, um, be who you are. And I know a number of artists who I know personally, and they are on stage who they are.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And I don't know how to do that except for I, I have, uh, gosh, years ago I got a call from somebody backstage, a friend who said, here's the deal.
I. I'm going on stage in, in about 20 minutes and, um, me and God are not having a good time. I don't, I feel distant, whatever, and I don't think I can go sing the songs that I wrote, so I don't think I can go on stage. And I went, what if he went on stage and said this? Good to see you all tonight. Um, I am really struggling with this God thing.
Um, but I'm here and you're here. So I would like to sing these songs that I wrote, um, when I had a strong faith. Um, 'cause maybe that'll come back and maybe you're at the same place and he did it. Mm-hmm. It was real.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: And it bridged the distance.
[00:18:29] Why the Mask Gets Too Heavy to Carry
Dr. JJ Perterson: Well, it, the burden of masks is just often too much to carry.
Right. Like when you carry, when you put on a mask.
Al Andrews: Mm-hmm.
Dr. JJ Perterson: And to become somebody else.
Al Andrews: Mm-hmm.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Like, not only does it keep you from connecting with people, but just that gets to me heavier and heavier and heavier. Yeah. And if you're like, trying to put out there like that, building your life around like, oh.
I'm so happy all the time. And then behind the scenes you're not. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It doesn't mean, I don't think it always means you go out there and just always say, I'm always sad, but working to bridge that gap makes living life and success so much.
Al Andrews: Yeah. And, and, and so I think as you're, as you're leading, um.
You lead with strength and you lead with weakness.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: Um, and you know, you just don't dump everything all the time on people. Yeah. But, but I think, um, the call to be real I think is just so important.
Dr. JJ Perterson: And it matters.
Al Andrews: It matters. Yeah. It really does matter.
Dr. JJ Perterson: One of, uh, my favorite things. Uh, that you talk about is in this space is, that is a little surprising, I think might be surprising for people.
'cause some of those, you go Oh yeah. Share your stage. That makes sense. But you, you teach people to read poetry.
Al Andrews: Yes.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Be, and we've done that. You and I have been in gatherings where we've actually gathered with our friends and just read po People have brought poetry, we've read it out loud, we've talked about it.
Why do you believe that reading poetry matters in leadership and leading up to success, keeping you. Kind of grounded.
Al Andrews: Well, you know, it's, it's so funny when I, I got married, my, my wife is a poetry ninja.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: She has studied, there's actually a counseling degree in poetry therapy
Dr. JJ Perterson: Oh, wow.
Al Andrews: Using poetry as a part of what you're doing.
And she has access to thousands of poems you could say. Could you gimme a poem on this? And you know she does, and I was unconvinced, but she said, I want you to listen to this. And it was, uh, a poet named Billy Collins, who is, who was a poet, Laurie in the United States. And of all people, bill Murray introduced him at an event and he got up to read and I was smitten with.
What he did. Um, and so she introduced me to him and to others and basically said, um, poetry is an economy of words that goes to the heart. And, um, she kept introduced me to different poets and she said a good poem has what I, what is called an envoy line. An envoy is somebody that I, as a leader of our country, send to another country that goes and assesses the situation and comes back and brings me news from another land.
That I didn't know. And she said, that's what a good poem does. It brings you news from another place. And, um, uh, Mary Oliver said, a, a poetry is like a rope let down that you can hang onto and get pulled up. Um, so knowing that you're gonna ask me this, I brought a poem today.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yes.
Al Andrews: Just to give you an example.
Of how, 'cause this is, this takes a lot of convincing.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah,
[00:21:58] The Poem That Changes How You See It
Al Andrews: it really does. Because most people had a horrible experience, high school with poetry uhhuh. Um, and, but. But, um, I found, uh, poems that are accessible, you know, and, uh, Billy Collins wrote a poem called, uh, poetry 180, which he cr he found 180 different poems, uh, for every day of a high schooler's senior year.
You know, and this is one of 'em. This is called Under Ideal Conditions. It's short by a guy named Alzo Ness, uh, Z-O-L-N-A-S. Call under ideal conditions, say in the flattest part of North Dakota on a starless moonless, moonless night, no breath at all. A man could light a candle and then walk away, and every now and then he could turn and see the candle burning.
17 miles later provided conditions remained ideal. He could still see the flame somewhere between the 17th and 18th mile. He would lose the light if he were walking backwards. He would know the exact moment when he lost the flame. He could step forward and find it again, back and forth. Dark light, light to dark.
What's the place where the light disappears? Where the light reappears, don't tell me about photons and eyeballs, reflection and refraction. Don't tell me about 186,000 miles per second and the theory of relativity. All I know is the place where the light appears and disappears. That's the place where we live.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Well, um, you're not supposed to make me cry. First interview in the podcast studio. That's
Al Andrews: the Envoy line.
Dr. JJ Perterson: That's the envoy line. I mean, and it's so beautiful because, uh, well, we could talk about that poem specifically for a long time. Sure. But I think, uh, here's. I'll bring this back to some of my communication theory of why actually this works also.
Al Andrews: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Why Direct Advice Doesn’t Always Work
Dr. JJ Perterson: So I, I studied, uh, kike guard and indirect communication, and one of the, we're moving from poetry to academia here I'm like, Hey, breaking it down, it
Al Andrews: fits.
Dr. JJ Perterson: But I studied Kike Garden indirect communication. And in that, what he would argue and others who study it would argue is that if you actually want to break through boundaries for people and express truth and change them, you can't do it directly.
So if you were to say to somebody who is in a hard place, Hey, you need to recognize there's beauty in darkness and light in the world that like they're gonna go. Okay. You know, like you can't, when you go direct at somebody and then it actually is a little harder to break through. Mm-hmm. But when you use poetry, imagination story, um, myth, what you do is he would say, you kind of do.
The, you come in through the back door. Yeah, that's the indirect. And it causes, what's in academic terms is called double reflection. So you telling me something is single reflection. If I have to think about the words and then think about the application, now it's double. Wow. And that has greater influence on.
Your thoughts and actions. Yes. Uh, CS Lewis would talk about myth and story as a way of sle sneaking past the sleeping dragon of consciousness. Right? That often we cannot experience truth because there's this dragon that's keeping it away. But if we use. Poetry myth story. It allows us to experience new truths.
Mm-hmm. So when I look at this poem and I hear this beauty about, we stand in that place between dark and light and we step back and forth between it, and then there's a whole bunch more. I can mean in my apply to my own life mm-hmm. Is different than you, like me going through a hard time and you telling me, Hey, you need to realize that there's hard and good things in the world.
Al Andrews: Yeah. Or
Dr. JJ Perterson: that's direct.
Al Andrews: You know, it'll good will come. Hang on.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: Versus, oh. This is what life is.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah. And poetry does that for people. Yeah. I think there's, you know, it's beautiful and it creates a sense of awe, which also brings joy in life, but it also creates an understanding that we, honestly, what science and research says you could not achieve without that.
Because you have that kind of block. Yeah. And so I have found that to be true in my own life is that in the, sometimes in those moments when I feel overwhelmed, I feel like nothing's going good and all things, I find a place to listen to a song or I find, you know, that a lot of people maybe not turn to poetry per se, but they turn to music.
'cause there's lyrics that help them rediscover beauty.
Al Andrews: Exactly. It's really the same thing. Yeah. It's what is it that, um. Helps me to enter into a deeper place of understanding.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah. And, and that's, so I, that's one of the things that I've learned so much from you and Nita, your wife, is just that idea of turn to poetry in that, and, and it actually helps you rediscover some truths about yourself and the world that maybe you're missing mm-hmm.
That allows you to continue to move forward. What is, uh, you know, I know you have a lot of these, and, uh, I could probably, I'll bring you back another time. We'll do this again. Okay. But what would be one more that you kind of just notice that really is helpful for people to understand whether they're on their way up or as they're like achieving a level of success that maybe does, feels a bit overwhelming for them?
Al Andrews: You know, this is gonna be a strange sounding one, but I'll say it anyway, Uhhuh. Um, and that is, um, embrace sorrow.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Mm.
Al Andrews: One of the things that in counseling that eventually I'll ask someone probably pretty soon till they're coming in to see me, um, is by, uh, by observing what did you learn from your family of origin about grief and sorrow?
What did you learn about being sad? Um, and it's amazing how many people go. We didn't go there. We didn't go there. My own family, I loved them. Um, growing up my parents had some struggles growing up and it was difficult, and so they didn't want us to struggle. And so the theme of our family was happy.
Mm-hmm. Um, but I didn't know what to do with sorrow, uh, when I was teaching in a counseling program. I was teaching psychopathology, which is what's wrong with people? All the different things. And I started every class with a statement and it is, it was, um, the flight from sorrow leads to the loss of hope.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Explain that.
Al Andrews: Well, if you, if you flee sorrow, if you don't embrace it, um, it goes somewhere. Often someone who's very depressed. If it's not a physiological depression, often there's something that they will not face, a sorrow that they will not grieve, and something just shuts down inside. Um, if you look at different things that people struggle with, whether it's um, anorexia, whether it's depression or anxiety, all sorts of different things, often, often there is something in their past that has not been grieved and, um, that will bite you.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: That will bite you Eventually, um, as a leader, um, it will come and get you.
Dr. JJ Perterson: How do you embrace sorrow then?
Al Andrews: You know, all sorts of one is, um, with someone else, um, tell the story that, you know, is there, um, uh, explore that story because, uh, we, we don't lean toward that. Explore the story and. And ultimately grieve what happened, if you will.
Um, I, I had a therapist one time that knew my own struggle with going there, um, and he said, um, so is there any song that brings tears to your eyes? I said, yeah, there're three. And
Dr. JJ Perterson: you like immediately.
Al Andrews: And I know 'em, it's like, what? Um, and, and he said, oh, good. He said, I just have an assignment for you. Um, I want you to go home and sometime in the next week or so when you're by yourself or go to your office early, lay down on the carpet, put your songs in.
Um, when you, uh, feel a tear come to your eye, open your mouth and let it rip. Mm-hmm. You know, just make some noise. And I, I went, that's ridiculous, but I did it. I laid down and I put this song in. It was, uh, take It With Me by Tom Wakes, Tom Waits, and I felt this tear in my eyes. I opened my mouth and I wailed and it, and it kept going.
And I was going, I hope nobody comes the office early. I mean, I wad and I, I don't know what it was, um, but it showed me that there's sorrow in all of us. I. I have this little theory, not theory, but just thought of, I think that there is a stream of sorrow running through everyone that's always there. And if you're in a movie and something happens and you start crying, it's not about the movie, it's the, it's the film that connected to something.
Uh, it was an envoy. It's an envoy. And so. Uh, there, we could probably talk about sorrow for a couple hours. Yeah. But I just know that it's true. It's that, um, uh, Mary Oliver has a poem called Love Sorrow, and you can just Google it and it just talks about what it means to em. Embrace this sorrow that she describes as a little girl that needs to be held.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Yeah.
Al Andrews: Um.
Dr. JJ Perterson: Uh, I, I, we really could talk for hours. Mm-hmm. And I really do. We'll, we'll bring you back because Okay. I wanna hear some, I, I know there are others, like, I'll give a little teaser. One of my favorites you say is Pet the Bees. And, we'll, we'll talk about that later. That's we'll spoiler for our next one.
Pet
Al Andrews: the Bees.
Dr. JJ Perterson: What's
Al Andrews: that about? Okay.
Dr. JJ Perterson: But you have, what I love is that all of this, you're, you're the wisdom. That you bring from working with people who, again, are in the space of coming up and then also have achieved, and sometimes it's not enough or too much even when they've achieved mm-hmm. That finding these patterns that you've come back to and help people with.
And, and specifically today, just to kind of recap the idea of share your sage, I think that, that when you. Invite other people into your space and share your stage. It keeps you humble. Mm-hmm. It keeps you grounded. It shares the weight and it also is just fun. It's just fun to do stuff with other people and be a part of somebody else's journey.
Yeah. Um. The idea of bridging the gap between who you are publicly and who you are privately no longer having to carry that mask. 'cause that can crush you as well. It envi, it creates connection, but it also lifts the weight off of you as well. The poetry side of things of discovering truth that maybe you didn't.
Know that you needed to know. Yeah. And just experiencing beauty and awe in a whole new way. And then the final piece of, uh, you know, embrace the sorrow. And I think for all of us who are in this space of achieving, trying to achieve big things and big dreams, but wanting to do it in a way that keeps our soul grounded, this has been such a gift for me, again, to be reminded of things, things today, and for everybody listening.
So Al uh. I love it and I love you and so much. I'm so grateful that you are our first guest here, so
Al Andrews: I'm honored. Thanks
Dr. JJ Perterson: so much. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing, and thank you for being a badass softie.
Al Andrews: Thanks jj.
[00:34:29] On Sharing Your Stage and Being Real
Dr. JJ Perterson: I absolutely adore that man. He's, he's so wise and so kind and I really, I said it in the interview, but I could talk to him for hours and we will have him back.
He'll be back. Thank you Al, for being here and sharing with us. And I think the thing I am taking away just very practically from today's conversation is read more poetry. I, I think I get away from it. It feels frivolous often to kind of take time to sit aside, to just listen to music and just, you know, read poetry.
In fact, a lot of times when I'm listening to music, I'm doing it in the background of accomplishing something else. But if I can pause long enough to listen. To a new message, some new words, new beauty, a new voice that maybe has a message from me from somewhere else. Maybe it's something I need to hear and it will help me be more grounded, more myself, and allow me to actually move forward in a more full version of myself as I continue to build my dream, my business, and bring others along the way.
So I hope that that is inspiring for you and you got something out of it today as well. And as we close things out, I, I just wanna leave you with this. May you have the courage and commitment to share your stage to make room for others. Even as your own stage expands. May you live with a quiet freedom of being known for who you actually are, not just who people imagine you to be.
May you slow down enough to notice beauty and let the words and wonder of poetry shape your soul. And may you have the ability to see both into the dark and the light to welcome sorrow instead of running from it, knowing that when we avoid things, they don't disappear, they wait. And when we embrace, we can finally begin to heal because we believe you can be both ambitious and kind, fun and driven, powerful and deeply human.
Your leadership can inspire your success, can have soul, and your ambition can make space for. Everyone. That's why you are a badass softie. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Badass softie.com is crafted by fruitful design and strategy.